Do they deserve a bailout?

Its amazing that this is going on. The american car was something of pride. They can come back and will. Hybrids are being introduced and will keep improving. They made a few mistakes. I just got my new 2009 Pontiac G6 GT Convertible from Hare Pontiac in Indianapolis and Im happy as well as the other 3 people that were buying their american cars that day. Imports are great but lets not give our companies the TKO just yet.

When doing just enough is rewarded
The UAW
Because you just dont feel like getting any better
Support the UAW
While the rest of america continues to improve the UAW continues to lift the uneducated and non-motivated up the financial ladder.
Way to go UAW

why no one is talking about the small business.freddie robinson auto need help more than big business no 4078801595

Folks, let’s take a breather.

This is not a bailout. This is about economic warfare with other economies.

They all do it. They all subsidize. They all coddle their own industries. They love our naïveté. They are eating us for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and also for in-between-meal snacks.

We don’t do that. We don’t like it. It goes against our economic genetic makeup. Our freedom-loving ways make it natural to give people a chance to succeed and to do that, we naturally have to give them the chance to fail. The one cannot occur without the other. Otherwise the resources to let people start up new ventures would always be used to support dying industries.

So why not let the Detroit 3 fail in this case, at this juncture?

First of all, even WE in the West subsidize the transplants, begging them to locate in our state or province. Do you see anything inconsistent in that? When did we last give Ford a 10-year freeze on taxes for opening a plant in Mississippi?

If I were an “old car sector” autoworker in the parts or fabrication industry I would initially just be having an angry fit. That would be followed by great sadness on my part as to why everyone seems to be abandoning this very critical sector. And as to why everyone is so myopic. Time will tell how painfully the repercussions will flow through the economy.

Sure, we cannot save every activity, every initiative, and every person’s job. Not too many people make buggy whips anymore. And sure we need new ideas, new solutions.

There is a lot of ignorance in the world. And I am personally ignorant about a lot of things. And maybe I am in this too, but I hope not.

But to me it seems that there is an awful lot of ignorance to be shared. For example, I have to laugh at the Climate Change crowd. Wake up. That global warming multi-decade charade is over. You have to finally admit, that like communism, the Global Warming ideology is dead, in the wastebasket of history, utterly discredited, useless, and furthermore grievously harmful to our economy.

Al Gore in his famous film, his sticky words oozing sarcasm, claims that there cannot possibly be a relationship between carbon dioxide and warming. He naturally wants you to laugh at the people who might claim this. This is because He, the Goracle, does this standing in front of a chart showing hundreds of thousands of years of time which confirms that there is an almost pure 1-to-1 relationship between those 2 factors. It is pretty hard to argue with that. I guess Big Al MUST be right — those stupid people who cannot understand this are like dodos. What utter simpletons they must all be.

But then that is because Gore has the relationship BACKWARDS. It is not the carbon dioxide that is driving the changes in the average planetary temperatures; it is the temperatures that are driving the concentrations of atmospheric carbon dioxide.

This is the kind of pseudo-intellectual and pseudo-scientific babble the average person has to contend with every day. And it goes for the economy as well. We until recently had another person we anointed with god-like skills, another Oracle Big Al, a Maestro, a Guru, a “genius”, our own Alan Greenspan at the Federal Reserve. In a fascinating exchange with Representative Henry A. Waxman, Greenspan admits that maybe his ideology had slight ‘flaws’
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/23/greenspans-mea-culpa/?apage=10

[I begin quote:]

Referring to his free-market ideology, Mr. Greenspan added: “I have found a flaw. I don’t know how significant or permanent it is. But I have been very distressed by that fact.”
Mr. Waxman pressed the former Fed chair to clarify his words. “In other words, you found that your view of the world, your ideology, was not right, it was not working,” Mr. Waxman said.
“Absolutely, precisely,” Mr. Greenspan replied. “You know, that’s precisely the reason I was shocked, because I have been going for 40 years or more with very considerable evidence that it was working exceptionally well.”
[I end quote.]

But this is what we do; we cling not to our guns and religion, but to those outdated ideological straightjackets that keep us from taking practical and useful positions given differing circumstances and new information. We need to remain flexible. It is not easy.

Why do say this? Because there is a harmful parallel between the Climate Change proponents and the straight-jacketed way we run our money system. We do it backwards. Foremost we base all our growth on Debt — ever heard of Savings-based Consumption? C’mon, that’s crazy-talk!

The auto worker, and company executive, must both wonder why all the changes they have made have not brought more improvements to them and to their indigenous industry.

IMO it is because they are up against the most powerful entrenched institution the world has ever known. If it were properly run, that would not matter. But IMHO, it is not properly run, because it clings to a harmful view of how the economy operates. And it therefore makes bad mistakes in trying to “fix” perceived problems.

The institution I am referring to is the Federal Reserve Bank of the United States. Well, to the FED, to be fair, I should add all its brethren in those countries we compete with.

There is collusion, not premeditated, but collusion nevertheless. These institutions and the way they run our money system allow for great hidden subsidization of industries around the globe. There is no level playing field. Our automakers don’t stand a chance.

Don’t get me wrong. There are other wounds. There are other mistakes and mismanagement. But against such otherwise notable maladroitness, the FED does not take second place. It is first.

There is a lot of evidence that the FED was instrumental in the creation and nourishment of the Housing Boom. A similar effect was observed in the auto industry. We could not build and buy enough cars. It was not the big SUV versus the small car, it was that anything went. And now we have the subsequent painful bust. We have pre-bought maybe 7 years worth of surplus cars. That is, because we were so out of whack, it might be 7 years before we return to some normal trend line of sales.

There are many places to read about the FED’s involvement with the Housing Boom — one recent one is at http://mises.org/story/3252

The way that the FED and the other countries can hurt domestic manufacturing, especially automobile manufacturing, can be showcased with a simple example.

Let’s use Japan as our example. After the war, Japan was coddled by America. (America did the same with Europe and later with China, for various strategic, geopolitical reasons. These were not poorly thought out. To get any semblance of stability in your former enemies, you need to allow them to rebuild their economies.)

Japan learned to use import duties and import restrictions to help itself. In her position we would have done the same. But the game was learned too well. Japan was never able to wean herself away from this way of doing business. After a while Japan was forced to make some concessions. But it retained (among other ‘underground’ methods) a dangerous, hidden way of stimulating its own industry and economy. This was the printing of Japanese money. If the manufacturing of new money had been kept to only the growth in the indigenous economy’s real output, then no bad effects should have ensued.

But money was manufactured far beyond any semblance of normality. Japan paid for it with the boom of the 1980-s and the subsequent bust. But did China learn from this? Well it learned you could have a boom. Now China is trying to avoid the bust.

What does this have to do with Big Al (Greenspan) and our current FED Head Ben Bernanke?

What Japan and China do, along with many other countries, is that they exchange the Mad Money they have created into American dollars. This is done using those surpluses that their own exporters have earned on world markets. After all, the exporter living in Japan has to pay local wages and taxes using local currency. This entire process penalizes their own workers and consumers, because it keeps their own currencies artificially depressed. Local wages are lower than they should be. And foreign products, to Japanese consumers, are far more expensive than they would otherwise be.

But it is a boon to the economy overall (for a while). The car maker in Japan is subsidized every day this continues. And consequently the American car worker is penalized every day it continues.

His American products cannot compete.

Not only that, but America’s debts to other countries continue to grow. There are no “checks and balances”, no feedback within the overall system that should force self-correction. We sell our children’s inheritance to others. We have made them debt-slaves to foreigners. They will never forgive us. Well I guess we can claim we did not know any better. That we thought we were doing good.

So how does the FED facilitate our housing and auto bubbles through a mechanism that is already causing terrible harm to our auto sector? Why it calmly observes that there is no inflation (as measured by a CPI of a limited number of goods and services) and proceeds to also inflate our domestic money supply. This leads to a boom here also.

This is a boom that is most definitely not indefinitely sustainable, as the current times seem to portend. The earlier example of Al Gore and his graph come to mind. Why it seems perfectly sensible to any non-dodo that we can inflate our money supply to “stimulate” the economy, so long as I, the FED chairman, cannot see any inflation. Not only that, but I can inflate to “save” the economy from that “evil” known as Deflation. Whoa, Deflation —- now that’s scareeeee, boys and girls. Please see Helicopter Ben and his ideology on display at the FED’s own site
http://www.federalreserve.gov/BOARDDOCS/SPEECHES/2002/20021121/default.htm

So, Ben Bernanke, following the ideology of his predecessors, will continue to pump up the money supply, as if that will be our Savior, and not the Deb-Devil it really is — the devil which has only just started to torment us.

There is no free lunch. I don’t think the autoworkers are asking for one, given the circumstances I have outlined above. Such ‘collusion’ and artificiality are killing our money system’s ability to do the job it was intended for.

ABSOLUTELY!!!

How soon we forget just how important these companies were to the establishment of the American Way. Ford and GM helped build this country to what it is. Let’s not forget that these companies have sacrificed for us too. IN times of war, they have stopped production to build miltary vehicles, tanks and planes for our country. Did they ever say NO to helping out when it was needed.

Well now they need us to help them. They wouldn’t be in this problem if more people bought American. Stop trying to impress everyone out there with your Lexus or Mercedes and have a little faith in the American product.

A few weeks ago, my brother-in-law and I had a heated discussion over American cars and his point was that no American car would last as long or as well as his Porsche, and the only one he’d consider would be a Corvette Z06. I said “really” let’s discuss it. If you took care of the Vette and well as the Porsche, it would last just as long. If you go out there and wipe it with a diaper (soft cloth), change the oil every 1,000 miles and tuck it in at night, just like you do with your Porsche, I guarantee it’ll last just as long. The problem is that you wouldn’t do that becasue it’s n American car, you expect it to be tougher and stand up to more punishment and only change the oil every 5,000 – 7,500 miles.

America car products are every bit as good as the foreign cars, we are simply much harder on them and expect them to do more with less care and maintenence. It’s an unfair comparison and an completely false statement to say that foreign cars are better. It’s simply not true.

Ask yourself this, especially if you are an owner of a foreign car, when’s the last time you sat behind the wheel of an American car, I bet it’s been a long, long time. Remember, the best things the foreign car companies have done is not build a better car, but sold people on the idea that they build a better car. Best sales job in world history.

Support GM and Ford in this time of need. They certainly have been there for the past, oh, 100 years for America.

Be American, Buy American, Support the American product.

bankruptcy is the most viable option at this time. contracts can be negated now, not some future time, yes it will call for all three to downsize. yes workers will lose jobs. yet i did not see the govt. step in last week to help the 535000 workers who applied for first time benefits…..that number by the way equals all of the present employees of the big 3.

The straight answser is no. If they collapse, then as with anything in America, with a void, new inventive companies will be created and fill the void. The good thing is, they cars will be better and the excess of the UAW will lost.

Time to let captialism work the way it is suppose to.

This isn’t a Big three or UAW problem. This is the governments problem. Ross Perot said it best, “Giant sucking sound of jobs leaving our country.” With nafta and cafta and all the other deals to make work for the world, the jobs in the USA would go away. I knew this had been coming for years. It was only speeded along by George W. and the Republicans. The American Auto industry didn’t get tax breaks to match the ones given foreign companies moving to the US. Could your business compete if the government gave all the breaks to foreign companies. The answer is NO the government made this mess, and they should fix it.

I have a mortgage with GMAC and I have been out of work since june 2008. Keeping them informed every month about being behind and needing refi has fallen on thier def ears. GMAC should be treated just like they treat us their borrower’s—very badly! They don’t deserve ANY HELP BECAUSE THEY DON’T EVEN MAKE A EFFORT TO WORK WITH THEIR CUSTOMERS WHO FIND THEMSELVES ALMOST IN TROUBLE. THEY USUALLY MAKE THINGS WORSE FOR THEIR CUSTOMERS. Where’s my helping hand…not thru GMAC that’s for sure!!!

Give them a bailout – and bail them out of the UAW while you’re at it.

UAW work rules and excessively high wages are a significant part of the reason the US auto industry has a very hard time being competative on a consistant basis.

The only unions I know of that are MORE of a parasite are the Postal Worker’s Union and the Teamsters – all 3 of these unions are notorious for making it almost impossible to fire incompetant workers even WITH cause, among other issues.

And no, I am not anti-union. I’ve helped unionise one place I worked because it needed a union – but far too many unions last far beyond the point they are needed and turn into parasites.

GM, no. They have been blowing off the market for decades, and their steady decline in market share compared to Ford (much less their losses to the imports) is a direct result.

Chrysler, mabey. They almost went backrupt once before, got a big loan from the government, and eventually paid it off.

Ford, yes IF needed. They’ve lost by far the least market share of the 3 big US auto makers over the last 40 years, because they are more responsive to the market most of the time. Doesn’t mean they’re perfect, but they do the best job of the Big 3 overall – and that is reflected by their far better current financial position compared to GM or Chrysler.

Personally, I think far too many morgage holders are getting a free ride the last few months, when those of us that do deal with credit RESPONSIBLY are getting the shaft on these bailouts. Where’s *MY* free money?

ABSOLUTELY NOT! Before they are giving a dime make the UAW re-negotitate it’s contract. It’s redicious what they are making and now letting the taxpayers bail them out. It is apparent the UAW tends to hold the American Automotive Industry hostage and demanding a ransom the American tax payers can ill afford. Congrats to congress for giving Mr Gettlefinger and his greedy constituents the middle finger!!!

b> If a family member is sick and no one does anything then that person may die, who suffers, not the dead person but the family. ( loss of income, protection etc. The same I feel holds for GM, they are a major part of this country if they die the states will suffer not GM.

GM and Chrysler are in no position to deserve a lucrative loan from our tax dollars. They regularly embrace business practices not accepted in any other industry in America. Such as the job bank.

You should not bail out Chrysler. THey have owners with deep pockets who won’t invest int heir own company. Why should the taxpayer? It doesn’t make sense. Tell Cereberus to spend some of that $ 100 Billion in revenue on Chrysler.

BORROW THE MONEY NEEDED FROM THE OIL COMPANIES,

This is a loan to the auto industry. The last loan was paid back with profit(Chrysler in the 80’s) . If GM goes into chapter 11 who would finance it??? Nobody would be in a position to give GM the billions of dollars needed to work thru chapter 11. The company would go into chapter 7 and who would be in line to buy the assets? foreign car companies.

Giving the money to the American people would devalue our dollar so bad, we would be in worse shape.

I have never owned a foreign car and probably never will, I will always buy from an American car company. As with every thing I do I try and balance what is good for my family with what is good for my country.

Our manufacturing sector is being destroyed by foreign competition and the sending of jobs over seas. This is the same manufacturing capacity that was called “the arsenal of democracy”. The government should loan the money to the auto companies, but they should also restrict the so called free trade agreements.

No Bailout period. The US auto industry needs a complete overhaul – from management to auto worker. There are plenty of highly qualified and motivated workers waiting in the unemployment lines. Let the big three reorganize under bankruptcy and let a new US auto industry emerge that will set the standard of competition rather than run from it.

Do they deserve a bail out? No. Years of squandering and poor managing of finances and not keeping up with foreign companies has put them in this situation.

As much as they don’t deserve a bail out, it is absolutely necessary. A failure of one or all of the companies would leave millions more out of work, and throw us into a massive depression. There has to be oversight of the funds, to ensure that the money does not go for any bonuses of any kind, except perhaps to employees who can find ways to ease costs, labor, production times, and so on. No CEO or corporate bonuses should be used with taxpayer money and there has to be a way for the taxpayers to get a return on our investment.

First of all,we need a small bailout package to just stabalize the economy and get confidence back in the economy. I do feel that we need upper management change in all three companies and that they need to focus on vehicles that consumers want instead of all the brands. Why is everyone talking about the labor wages of the big three? Toyota came out and said that their package is higher than the big three. The problem is, that Toyota may be employing local people, but the majority of the money is going to foreign countries. I just purchased a 2008 F-150 and the Toyota truck was $6000.00 higher than what I purchased (Ford trucks is all I buy). So if everyone is concerned about union labor wages, then why are the Toyota’s substantially higher? This tells me that they underpay local workers and the rest of the money goes over seas.So, the big three need to make better vehicles and it should be our obligation to purchase from the big three and keep all the money in our country!

John Stossel puts it perfectly.

It isn’t just a bailout of the “big three”. There are multiple layers of companies that supply the “big three” that would also go under. Michigan has already had its own recession in progress for about the last 3 years. Failure to support the auto companies would push Detroit and Michigan rapidly into a depression – multiple businesses will fall like dominoes here. I don’t think it would take long for the rest of the country to follow. Does the US really want to lose that much manufacturing base/employment? My job is not even closely related to the auto business, but I live in MI. Without a bailout, my family leaves this state (fortunately, I have a secure job and can get employment elsewhere). There won’t be anything left of Michigan – as all the secondary manufacturers fall, so will the grocers, retail stores, hospitals, etc. It is already happening here on a smaller scale, the fall of the “big three” will just accelerate that process. By the way, I don’t recall seeing AIG/Citibank officials etc, begging for their lives in congress.

As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and
frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation’s economic
survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act
without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The
same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when
influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.

Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No
Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the ’70s, ’80s and ’90s. You
and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not
relevant in today’s world.

When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have
overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford
outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world’s
No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.

When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy
makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and
Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read
the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.

Did you realize Big Three’s gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the
Accord. And for ‘09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best
midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford’s Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy’s Cobalt
beats the Civic.

When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to
1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus
interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.

When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you’ve noticed
the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of
that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford’s F-Series has been
the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see
the new ‘09 F-150 you’ll agree this won’t change soon.

Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda.
Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and
development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids,
plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.

It’s 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the
best in the world.

Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn’t really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to
American. Maybe it’s the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land
factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about
their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby’s
disdain for “government subsidies” is very hypocritical. In the early ’90s he was
the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama
agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three
is requesting will be paid back, Alabama ’s $180,000-plus per job was pure
incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving
hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack
of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.

After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus emergency
vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by the
Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!

We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce
products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations
subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While
our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian
competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production
cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it’s not
enough.
Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor
Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005,
closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and
the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford
product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the
nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company
management team in the business.
The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall
Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created the problem.
AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and
hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and
the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the
$700 billion, $25 billion to save the country’s largest industry, there is obviously
oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700
billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?
As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is
not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a
bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11
bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements.
Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much
less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra
health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the
taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with
the intent of repayment.

So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a
$25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our
country.

So I’ll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit . Before you,
Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them
against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you
one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and
retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation’s
jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic
disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not
in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way.
Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?

Jim Jackson
Elkins

No, but give it to them anyway.
Don’t blame the UAW. Management in these companies is greedy and short sighted. They have no interest and do not care about the long term. they have no core values or consistance of purpose. They are not product people in any way, shape or form.
There are some exceptions, but most of the CEO’s of mature domestic industries have no plan or vision for the future and will sacrafice the long term viability of the company for their bonus at the end of they year.
This is more than an automible industry problem.

The big 3 don’t deserve a bailout but the economic crisis is getting deeper and deeper, I personal think that the goverment have no choice but to assist them.Failing to assist may cause more company in the auto industry to close down and lots of unrest.

Does it matter? Will not Obama save everyone when he ascends to Office? Michigan voted for him, let him worry about it in January.

Evolution – poor style, poor reliability, poor future planning…..these 3 deserve to fall hard and fast. Please, let the weak die!

I am against bailouts of any kind. Banks, retailers, automakers should all fail and let the economy reset.

It is my belief and strong feeling, and it is not because of the auto industry or dealerships in any particular part of the U.S., because I have had the opportunity to live all over due to my employment, the auto industry, and most particularly the U.S. auto manufacturers and their dealers, have been doing very predatory business for a very long time in this country. Predatory from the stand-point of producing very inferior products, to literally cheating and stealing from those that purchased vehicles and repair services from them.

As far as I am concerned, it is about time the U.S. auto manufacturers and all of their dealers PAY THE PIPER!

All of the fat-cat auto manufacturer’s workers, including on the assembly-line and in the corporate headquarters have been living off the money paid by wanting-to-believe-in-their-product buyers for a long, long time. Now, they are crying in their own soup, along with the dealers that have made huge amounts of money for a long ,long time also.

What we now see, and they see, is that it really is true that “THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING”. For all of those folks, YOU MADE THE PUDDING – YOU EAT IT!!!

This is my favorite comment “Why don’t the Big 3 get a loan from the oil companies?” This makes straight business sense in business value chain investment. Pepsi owns (or used to own) Taco Bell and KFC so they could buy their soft drinks. Why dont the oil companies do the same thing. If they want people drive their gas guzzling hogs, they better do their part to make sure they keep getting built.

According to Yahoo Financial dataas of the last quarter, GM has 610,460,000 shares outstanding. Their ‘book value’ is -98.19/shr. Let’s see, that’s 60 billion in the hole.

Of course, they had some assets as of last quarter, so their total debt is listed as 45.16 billion.

Currently, since they’ve been burning cash like crazy (the bulk being union costs) and they haven’t been selling cars to maintain cash flow, so their actual debt must be in the ballpark of 50 billion.

Now, any company who runs itself into that kind of debt…explain to me why we should spend our tax dollars to bail them out? I don’t care whether you blame it on bad management or absurd union costs. Both are valid arguments. But what difference does it make?

This company is beyond salvage and has no plans to pull itself out. Shorten the pain. Let ‘em go under. This talk about the millions of jobs it will cost is bull feathers. Do you actually believe that car parts manufacture and related industries are going to go down with it? If they go under, car parts will be in even greater demand. Someone will buy Saturn, the only profitable leg of GM. And, for a change we will actually have more quality cars than the junk coming out of Detroit. Gm’s idea of an econo-car is a cavalier – what a laugh. GM going under would be the best thing that could happen in this country.

One idea was to give the company to the union – I think that’s a grand idea. Let them deal with the monster they created.

I believe Chapter 11 would not only be the best option but would then assist in reshaping the US Auto Industry. The UAW and their methods need to be reshaped as they serve themselves better than those who sweat on the assembly lines. As for the wages of the auto works currently under the Union IT IS OUT OF WACK with what a normal working man SHOULD make in a labor position. Now that supply and demand is part of the equation why should wages stay as high as they are. The working people under UAW benefits are so out of reality I can not believe it!!!

Once upon a time there was a country with unlimited financial resources. Businesses were allowed to profit and reap the rewards of capitalism and if they came to the brink of failure because of greed or a poorly executed business plan, the government stepped in and bailed them out. As the government bailed out one industry, 2 more were in line for the next bailout, but that was OK because the government had an endless supply of money to fund the bailouts. Etc., Etc….And everyone lived happily ever after.

Why would they be bailed out for making inferior products? Hell no, I and my group of friends will still be buying Japanese and German vehicles not unless the big 3 mark their vehicles by 75% off msrp. Seriously!!!!

No it is a loan the auto companies will almost certainly default on. That is why they can’t get loans or lines of credit from commercial banks and investors.

I also think the banks and AIG should pay back the TARP they took money and didn’t pass it on to consumers they in fact raised rates hurting consumer spending. Government that can’t balance its own books shouldn’t be telling corporations how to run themselves.

I’m not very happy about helping any of these companies, or the financial industry, but if the money is not spent there a mass of social programs will absorb it. I figure as a middle class working person I want to see the money spent where it may at least have a chance to trickle down to some of the working class.

Who is going to bail me out? My tax dollar is going to companies that have better retirement then I do. Their workers are paid better then me, When I lost half of my retirement money, I didn’t see the government stepping in and replacing it. To the writer who complained about lifting 50lb fenders 5 days a week. Well, I do my share of heavy work, you try lifting somebody that weights 2-3 times what you weigh, working long hours, sometimes without a lunch break. Try chasing down some drug addict who’s out of his mind, or triing to restraint somebody that is combative. And I don’t get retirement in 25 years, I have to go till retiremnet age or I drop.

The big three have made poor business decisions in the past, and have made shoddy vehicles by anyone’s standards. When someone gets burned by buying a substandard product as their second largest purchase, it is completely understandandable that their perceptions can not be easily changed.
At Ford we have been working extremely hard trying to earn the public’s trust and loyalty. Currently our quality is dead-even or even better that any of the Japanese or European imports. We are developing advanced fuel systems, and are taking a sound approach at bringing them to market. Beginning next year, customers will be abel to equip their vehicles with eco-boost technology, which will increase fuel mileage by 20% while maintaining the performance of larger engines.
Bill Ford is a champion of green technology. From the Ford Rouge Plant to his consultations with Barack Obama, history will provide him with the legacy of the one individual who remade the auto industry, just as Henry Ford made the auto industry.
Alan Mullaly is a visionary. That is why Ford probably will not tap the bridge-loan.
We are in it for the long-haul folks. So hang on because we have some really exciting products coming that are going to measure-up to the highest standards and thrill every person who gets behind the wheel of a new Ford. See you at the top!!!

Why should we bail out companies,who have idiots for leaders,produce a piece of junk,and has worker leadership that doesn’t want to cooperate? Don’t worry,I have the solution,if our congressional crooks bail out the automobile corporate crooks,they should appoint the crook from Illinois as the car czar.On second thought,lets bail them out,after all,we did nothing to the oil crooks,the speculator crooks and bailed out the bank crooks.Lets bail out everybody but the worker whose only mistake was to play by the rules.

Don from Chicago……… and many other posters …. please try to get your facts straight. You seem to know very little factual information about the UAW or the auto companies.

Maybe you should all spend more time demanding that your goverment offcials are at parity pay and benefit levels as their counterparts in other countries such as Somalia, Burundi,Afganistan,or Malawi.

Why bailed out the big three. Ford sold me a crap 3 years ago and I swore never to buy a Ford again. Let them go bankrupt.

And let us not forget that Chrysler is now a private company owned by a very deep pocket Hedge Fund. Why don’t they bail themselves out? Instead, they want to make money on their deal on taking Chrysler private and want our tax moneies to bail them out?
As for GM, fire the senior management and get rid of the UAW and then we will talk.
Ford is doing just fine.
So there – no bail out!

“Bailout,” “loan,” I don’t care what you call it, the U.S. auto industry needs it and deserves it. The American economy needs it and deserves it. No, the American auto industry is not blameless. Yes, they have foolishly avoided planning for the future in the interest of gaining profits for the present. Literalists will argue that the only purpose of a corporation is to make profits for its shareholders today. The U.S. auto industry did just that by building all those ridiculous trucks people had to have. Pickups, vans, utes — they are trucks, not cars. Most people who have them have no genuine need for them. Families did just fine with big sedans and station wagons, thank you. But the manufactures made such a profit margin off those excresences. So, yeah, there’s blame in Detroit. But what about the greedy idiots on Wall Street and in Washington who created the real estate and credit crisis, which has decimated the entire economy and makes it such that the U.S. auto industry can’t borrow money to stay afloat and Jane and Joe Consumer can’t get sell their dinosaur utes or get credit to buy a rational car. Detroit is not blameless, but it did not create this mess. That the ripple effect that would result should the auto industry fail would be far reaching is beyond dispute. The added economic downturn would be felt and experienced in and in between every corner of this country. The U.S. auto industry deserves a reality check; it does not deserve decimation. The nation’s economy (meaning you and me) deserves a break. Washington and Wall Street deserve the burden of getting the country out of the mess they created, and deserve to help U.S. industry survive the effects of their greed-induced folly. It is beyond obscene that the government (read me and you) would bail out Wall Street only to subsidize their bonuses and allow them to manufacture other schemes to get rich at the expense of the nation’s financial health and security. It is beyond obscene that idiot law makers in Washington should grill U.S. automakers about how they, the automakers, intend to solve the financial problems that they, the law makers, were largely responsible for, only for those responsible law makers to grandstand and pad their own self righteous public personas. Sure, Wall Street and Washington owe the U.S. auto industry a bailout, and we, the people, deserve everything Wall Street and Washington can do to help us out of the mess that, more than any other aspect of society, Wall Street and Washington created.

Regarding Joe Maumus’s ck the math – check this math – GM burns 4 billions of cash per month so it is 48 billions per year. The so called $27.4 billions loss in tax income due to lost jobs is just roughly 1/2 of what GM ALONE will burn. And that supposedly income loss is assuming ALL 1 million workers will not find ANY job in the entire 2009.
It is really not that we hate the Big 2 (since Ford seems to be doing ok), it is just that we have to force the UAW to give more significant concession before we can agree to save the Big 2.

The auto industry has been in decline for a long time, the big three have made mistake after mistake, there is no chance of them making it in the poorest economic circumstances in out life time, they couldn’t even compete in the very best of times. There are better uses for the to be borrowed money.

NO NO NO bailout to save UAW workers’ jobs. They are over paid by any standards. The UAW leaders are greedy and out of touch of how to run successful organizations.

I work hard and UAW workers don’t. Even when they are laid off, they get almost 90% of their benefits. No motivation for UAW workers to work hard! If I lose my job, will UAW bail me out?? Of course not. Then why should I bail them out now?

NO NO bailout to save UAW workers’ job – they are overpaid and have no incentives to work hard!!

Big three has a severely broken businees model that continues to LOOSE money.
The reasons are as follows:
1. Ridiculous multi-million compensation for incompetent Leaders.
2. Ridiculous UAW rule that no workers can be laid off and the Work bank that pays 95% of salary for unlimited time.
3. Ridiculous high wages for workers that are NOT competitive against US foreign car workers.
4. Old, dull and big cars that are not selling.
5. Excessive incentives just to get rid of cars that should not have made in the first place.
In order to turn a profit, the Big three has to do the following:
1. Change the Leadership and cut the big fat pay and bonus of the Leaders.
2. Close the plants that make cars that are not selling, and lay off the workers. If they don’t want to layoff the people, reduce the hours for everyone to 20 to 30 hours and ask everyone to sacrifice. Also reduce every employees benifits.
3. Reduce wages to be competive.
4. Make new and better cars.
5. Stop giving excessive incentives so that every sale is profitable.
If the Big three does not seriously make changes to their business model to make themselves profitable, there is no reason for Tax payers to give them more money because they will keep loosing more money and ask for more.
IT IS TIME FOR ALL TAXPAYERS TO SAY NO to these NONSENSE of bailing out the FAT CATS(Leaders and workers)that do not want to make any sacifices.
Where is the justice. They just screwed up and gets rewarded for committing so many mistakes and screw ups.
The COMMON people are all suffering from this recession too. Who is going to bail us out?

Unless the US is now a communist dictatorship and the current auto makers are state enterprises they should not be propped up with taxes.
Let better operators buy them out or start up in their place. Without allowing nature to take it’s course the US will stagnate and fall further and further behind the rest of the world. Especially the ‘real’competitive countries.

Why does the government have to encourage mediocrity and punish success? It is wise to recall US vs Microsoft 10 years ago and how the DOJ, with taxpayers’ money, vigorously objected about bundling Internet Explorer with Windows. What a joke that was when you consider how different the internet marketplace is today. Now the US is about to save the big but mediocre 3? Another joke in progress.

Tough call, I agree that some workers need representation but I’m totally against bailing out the car companies and thier unions. I was against the the bank bail out since providing funds to idiots only makes matters worse and prolongs the recovery.

If as a taxpayer I am made to provide funds for the Big 3, I’ll never buy an American brand car again out of principal. It would basically be (getting screwed)/paying twice for for something I’m in complete disagreement with in the 1st place.

One of the commentators from CNN got it right (Zakaria?) – in the current economy, a breakdown of the big 3 would be a catastrophe. Operate the big 3 as one of the stimulus programs, best after a controlled bankuptcy, and privatize them again after the crisis.

We should not put good money in are bad, they should
not get any federal funds. Time to cut cost,etc. and build business model that is profitable and will generate positive cash flow.

I like to be pithy.

The answer to the question is NO.

But, then again, the banks and finance companies didn’t deserve a bailout either.

Obama should scrap any bailout as soon as he enters office and should instead give the money directly to the American people.

The Dumb Math: A $750 billion bailout (for finance companies, auto industry, etc.) would bankroll a $2500 check for EVERY SINGLE MAN, WOMAN, AND CHILD in the United States as of the last census. What does that mean? A family of four could get a “stimulus check” for $10,000 to (a) pay the mortgage and stay out of foreclosure and/or (b) buy a car.

The banks would get the massive capital influx the need through this process. The auto companies would get cars moving off the lots finally.

Unemployed Auto Worker = UAW

Why would I go pay 40k for a Dodge 4×4 Crew cab that is worth 21k the next day?

I’m tired of buying American Cars and being so far upside down in 1 week I cannot get out of it with out paying thousands of dollars.

I drive an Acura TL now. The difference in quality, workmanship and materials is so far off from what GM and Chrysler offer I would never buy from them again. FORD is the only one that produces a nice vehicle that is well built.

I say no bailout. Even with a bailout they won’t survive. Nissan/Toyota/Honda build way better cars that have far higher resale value. Why would anybody buy American? Seriously they lost their customers as the stealerships slaughtered the customers and buried them with crooked deals and overpriced crap. To hell with all of them. I’d rather see my 401k go to zero then deal with another GM stealership.

The UAW needs to go. There is no reason for the rest of the US to be garnished in order to support the UAW’s standard of living. Let’s get back to the basics – where you get rewarded for your accomplishments, and for a good job/product. I for one will NOT buy another GM/Chrysler/Ford if we bail them out!! Enough is enough!

I think the government should give it to the taxpayers and let the taxpayers decide if they should by a car from the “big 3″.

To the rescue deniers which drive
foreign cars and think that an US auto industrie is unnecessary:

1) Think of a single mother with several chidren, getting Welfare support

2) The woman is not a satifactory person, but povides for her children

3) So, following your logic, the support for this woman hould be denied and the children starve !!

Blame for the long standing failure of the US domiciled manufacturers lies squarely on the shoulders of management which several decades ago failed to stand up to labor unions. Shortly thereafter, Caterpillar found itself in a similar position, facing tremendous competition from foreign manufacturers. Rather than roll over as the Big 3 did (unions proposed the Ford contracts as a staring point), Cat fought for what was right and what would preserve jobs. Today, Cat has increased in size by several times over. The US manufacturers have languished in a sea of red ink attributable to legacy costs advanced and championed by the unions. Unions won’t free the industry from that burden voluntarily. Bankruptcy would reduce those costs and put the US industry on a competitive playing field. Although many jobs (including mine) might be at risk from a failure within the industry, I’d rather our government operate as it was intended. You can call it a loan if you want, but this “investment” would be so far down the balance sheet it is equity, and won’t ever be seen again. I don’t support this or any bailout.

Hello,
Give a bridge LOAN for life or pay for the funeral. Including 400,000 retirees who will be dumped onto medicade. Partisan politics is alive and well in washington. Southern congressmen want to protect and advantage their transplant auto industries, regardless of the effect on U.S. econonmy.
I have a suggestion, Congressmen need serve only 1 term for lifetime medical insurance and pension. Let them pay their insurance premium, and make life pension not collectable untill age 75. Divert all that money to create jobs so average citizens can live , and if possible, keep their homes. Those congressmen will have plenty of income from their special interest.
Show me a congressmen who doesn’t bow to big business, and I’ll show you a congressman in his last term.

No bailout for the little 3. The UAW refuses to be competitive and I should not have to foot the bill for their foolishness.

stupid question. its not about deserving. its about our society survival. throw the auto workers out of work, throw their suppliers out of work, expand the connections thrown out of work, you have 1,500,000 to 2,500,000 people needing unemployment benefits needing medicade.

the bailout is cheap compared to that.
this country has lost any “there but for the grace of God go I”. Its all about punishing somebody. I hope that makes you feel good. Because that’s all its going to do. You may have a job and feel in a “i got mine pull up the gang plank” but you will pay, your relatives will pay too.

Republican white southern males (I was born and bred in Georgia) are now more dangerous to the country than terrorists. Send Shelby to Get.

I once considered moving to Canada to escape the draft. now I want to move to escape Shelby and Mr. six minutes Corker. Idiots. Dangerous idiots. Even dumbo George and dangerous scatter shot Cheney get it. Unlike Michelle, I do not have a good reason to feel good about my country.

Isaiah Tucker Irvin VI,member sons of the American Revolution, member sons of the Confederacy (not so proud of that these days.)

I think we should bail them out, but fire the owners and all the CEOs. There are over 2 million jobs at stake, so we do need to save the auto industry. Just not the owners or CEOs. Let them crawl for once

When companies in the airline industry hit hard times there was no bailout. The employees including pilots and flight attendants had to take huge pay cuts and some companies filed bankruptcy. The Big 3 need to follow that example. I do not pay taxes to bailout individuals grossing 2-3 times my income and management grossing millions.

NO BAILOUT

WHAT GM, CHRYSLER AND FORD SHOULD DO IS PASS THE HAT AROUND THEIR SHAREHOLDERS.. IF THEY WANT TO SAVE THEIR INVESTMENT IN THIS COMPANIES THEY HAVE TU TOSS AN EXTRA $10-$20 PER SHARE….. IF NOT CHAPTER 11 IS THE NEXT STEP

I do not agree with the bailout. Call it what you want, it doesn’t matter to me. What is their plan with the money? What happens when it runs out? Who is going to buy these cars, and who are these buyers going to borrow the money from? I will never buy from these companies again; ever! These are soon to be welfare cars and trucks and I want no part of it. I am so pissed about these give aways I can’t see straight! I will not allow one of these vehicles on my driveway. These clowns should go through bankruptsy court like any other failing business. And quit threatening me with the notion that no one will buy a car from a bankrupt company; hell nobody is now! How stupid are people and how stupid and gullible are the taxpayers?

Fat Wages + Fat Retirement + Fat Benefits = Crappy Quality Car + Ugly Car.

I say no more money to the incompetent people and engineers of Detroit Three.

The main question is, what are the structural changes that they are making to come out of this mess in 1-year time to compete with Toyota and Honda in a more cost efficient operations and equal quality car?

ZERO COMMITMTENT from the Detroit Management and Workers.

Why do Honda, Toyota, BMW, cars cost just as much as american made cars if the wages are so much higher for UAW workers.
IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE, WHY AREN’T THE FOREIGN CARS 30% CHEAPER?

There is to much capacity for any of the manufactures foreign and domestic.. There industry is no different than any other than a bailout will only delay the realities. Look at GM, they have a debt load of 80 billion right now. What good is the 15 billion they are asking for as a bridge loan.. This is another bridge to no where. Look the manufacturing will move to the other manufactures in the states and the workers will move to those states that will pick up market share.. Or the workers will have to reinvent themselves along with the states they live in,,, This is Capitalism. If you want something else then you have to move to a different country..This country is moving in the wrong direction.. If you like higher and I mean much higher taxes which will kill our economy then keep the bail outs coming….

GM & Ford sold me junk and treated me like dirt for 35 years – now I’ll show them the same consideration they showed me.

They can go out of business of got to H… for all I care

American products have no competition what so ever… Whos next after the big 3? This economy is like a sinking ship, taxpayers to the bottom while the CEOs stay afloat. No bailout, No loan, No more of this bull$hit!! Suffer like any other business.

Hi My Name Ted; I would like to know why the republicans are so against and non-supportive of the UAW workers? Plus if the electes would research, they would find that the Toyota and Honda ect, do not have the pensions to fund, to where the big three has the pensions. So how can the republican’s say that this would be fair for the UAW workers to take a pay cut! Plus, why in the world would they even want to support the over sea’s auto industry more than there own in our states! I certainly would not vote for them for another term. WHAT ABOUT THE US WORKERS? THEY SHOULD BE LOOKING OUT FOR THE AMERICAN MEN AND WOMEN!! RIGHT! Plus the money that they make goes right back to there country. I have question? Does the Honda, Toyota, ECT. have to pay our State and Federal Taxes?

If a hurricane was 50 miles off the coast, and you could send it back to sea with a giant “fan”, would you do it to save 1 person? How about millions? Would you say, screw them, they shouldn’t live so close to the shore? What if the residents weren’t all strangers, but your friends and relatives?

Granted, letting the US auto industry fail won’t directly cause deaths, it will put people on the street. I can’t believe the animosity and shortsightedness of so many people and that they would throw their fellow Americans out in the cold snowy weather with nary a blanket.

When my wife and I lose our jobs (both GM Engineers), we’ll come live on your front lawn.

Honda; Toyoto & Kia are manufactured in southern states with Republican Senators who voted against Detroit.

Southern stated Republicans who have jap cars – voted against America – in the Senate. Bernanke got his wish … slow down the buoyant economy! Wall Street bails out AIG & Jay Winthrob makes out a $3,000,000 cheque to himself. Hand out a trilion to the banks and won’t loan to Detroit? Shameful.

75% of the 14B bailout would of gone to GM retirees, the other 25% would of gone to car production (making cars that didnt sell way before this recession, ex HUMMERS & ESCALADES) Theyre not using any of my tax money to make worthless cars!!

Not until we have a clear understanding of their restructure plan, which should include concessions from the companies and the UAW.

Yes the president needs to step up to the plate, every country around the world The Big Three does business in have come forward with aide as they realize the importance of this industry. Canada has promised 3 billion or 20% of whatever the US government provides. They do not have their head in the sands and can see the devastating effect it will have on the North American econony, the impact on the whole auto industry if these companies go under.

North American governments need to make it a level playing field, what ever Toyota, Honda Or Nissan ship in we should be able to ship into Japan.

Everyone blames GM for making gas guzzling vehicles or vehicles no one wants. Tell that to 9+ million people who bought a GM vehicles last year. GM only reacted to customer demand, provided what the consumers wanted when they walked into the show rooms to buy either a truck or SUV. You never hear the media mention that out of all the car companies GM has most vehicles that get 30 mpg or better. You never hear the media mention the fact both Toyota & Nissan built new plants to build gas guzzling SUV’s. Media never talks about the fact all the profits the foreign name plates make leave Norh America. Whenever there is a disaster GM is always there with funds to help the American people remember 911. You did not see the foreign name plates donating money to help out. GM keeps investing in North America, have been doing so for over 100 years. GM’s quality is equal or better now to that of Toyota, you do not see Camry on the recommended buy list this year due to all the quality issues that car is having. Car of the Year went to the Malibu, CTS not a foreign name plate.

“It’s the Trade Imbalance, Stupid!”

In the past the saying was “It’s the Economy, Stupid!” The issue today, however, is instead the out-of-control trade imbalance – a key reason why we are in this current Economic Crisis. Almost ¾ of a trillion dollars every year leaves this country. This money, which could have put Americans to work – subsequently producing tax revenue to fund infrastructure and social programs in America – is instead funding the development of jobs and infrastructure in other countries. Out-of-work Americans further drag down the American Economy. Global trade is good but a trade imbalance is not. Patriotic Americans must first buy from American companies and their workers, and in doing so will help the Detroit Auto companies and their thousands of suppliers get us out of our Economic Crisis/Depression. Detroit was the Arsenal of Democracy for WWII. Detroit can now be the Engine of our Economic Recovery.

The only way the American People (the government) should bail out the automobile makers is if the executives and union workers agree to major pay cuts, including major reduction of their medical and other benefit packages. No other large companies offer such benefits to their workers. It is unfair for the rest of Americans, who are little or no benefits to pay for the Union’s benefits. I predicted this 4 years ago, when I learned of the pay and benefits the auto workers were getting. It’s time to get REAL.

Let me get this straight, the republican administration has haved complete power for the 6 out the 8 previous years. They have trashed the economy with theyr’e goofy deregulation. They have no problem giving no unaccountable loans to Wall St.. They they can’t even say where all the bailout money is going. Yet they want to be taken seriously as financial managers and tell the Auto companies and unions how to run a business. I’m sorry, I just don’t feel they have the creditibility.

Let’s be real here. Chapter 11 is a great solution if the Big 3 can’t make it any other way. That’s why it’s there. Many others have had to take that path. Some make it and some don’t. Over the years the qualitly of the American made product has suffered to the point the imports have been able to find a niche in America, using the American workforce to build a far superior product that end users were willing to pay MORE money for…go figure. Having said that do you really think the “warranty issue” is real if any of the Big three were to go bankrupt? Who cares about a warranty…that’s why the imports have done so well. They offer a lesser warranty, but you seldom need to use it. Talk to any of the companies that sell extended warranties and they’ll tell you, you’ll pay much more to get an extended warranty on any of the Big 3 products….hum?
Also, think about this. The demand for Big 3 products has diminished substantially, as well as that of the imports. People aren’t buying, and even if they want to, they can’t secure financing. Those that are in a position to purchase are not buying big three products, partly because of their financial status, but more so because of the quality of their product. So at the end of the day any funds that are being considered for the Big 3 should probally be split up and sent directly to the tax payers enabling them to clean up debt, and begin to get their “house” in order. Even if they spent the money foolishly, the economy would win somewhere….the Big 3 are in too deep. Chapter 11 in my estimation is the only option.

Save the homes of the workers by offering low interest loan modifications to them. Off-load the health care costs of the workers and their families onto whatever the new Obama health care program will be called. But the Big Three need to be reorganized so they can actually sell cars and make money.

Postponing the inevitable bankruptcies of the Big Three only sounds good because it’s the Christmas Season. Their businesses are certain to lose money unless and until they show us how they will compete with the Japanese, Germans and Koreans.

MORAL RESPONSIBILITY!!

If you rent a car and insure it, are you as responsible as if you didn’t opt for the insurance?

Well, if a company can go whimpering to the government and ask for money to bail it out, isn’t only adding to the recklessness of america?

It is already too late for the companies. Just add another $14 Billion to their debt and the interest alone will put them under. They are already bankrupt…Don’t wast good money after bad. Remember the steal workers from the 70’s, When America stepped in, it protected them but had a unexpected ripple affect and hurt everyone else!!

The government needs to stop trying to control everything. They are the sole source of the financial problems of this country, starting with their guarantee of backing up bad loans bought up by Fannie and Freddie. Everybody else knew this and everybody failed when that failed. Not that I agree with it, but that is why they got bailed out…it was in the original contract, though I don’t remember hearing many other people being concerned by this. Who wouldn’t invest in a guarantee?

Do your research before placing blame (and voting!). We shouldn’t be placing our trust in these people who have never done a day of real work in their lives to run the economy. No sense in relying on the government who got us into this mess to get us out. There is no upper, middle, lower class left in this country. There is a working class and a political class. We need to reverse the trend and decrease politics as a whole. The people who truly know the role of government as designed in the Constitution are the people we need in office.

Let them DIE. The government should have done this to Bear,Stern etc. This proves fiat(paper) currency does NOT ever. DO your history homewrk

Let them all fail…banks, car manufacturers, etc….they LOVE the concept of Capitalism when they are raking in huge profits, but want Socialism when they are hurting…..I had “SAFE, VERY CONSERVATIVE” investments in stocks and bonds that got HAMMERED because of all these clowns….no one is going to give me any money to compensate me for the fact that I lost money because of these boneheads and their unscrupulous, STUPID business practices….let them pay the price and perhaps learn a lesson for the future…if we bail them out the ONLY message we are sending them is that they can act stupidly again in the future and expect yet another bailout………send a message to businesses everywhere and let them see the penalty for lousy management and shoddy, stupid business decisions….

I think we better help, regardless of the principles involved.I’m a lifelong Republican but these Senators are not useing there heads who oppose this LOAN. Can You immagine a USA without our own Auto companies? Why so free with our money to the financials?

I notice an awful lot of smugness here from people who seem to be saying something to the effect of: “I’m smart enough to make it on my own, without a union getting in my way.”

You might say that now. There are an awful lot of people comparing UAW wages to foreign auto workers’ wages. I’ve also noticed a few people here who say one can make more working for Honda or Toyota (now) than one can working for the Detroit three.

People, wake up. Honda and Toyota are businesses, just like Chrysler/Ford/GM. They’re out to get the best possible return on their capital. Honda and Toyota are scared to death of the UAW, so they take care of their employees so they don’t try to unionize.

Does anyone see the correlation there? When the UAW is effectively out of the picture (the UAW has effectively been broken with the concessions they’ve made), Honda/Hyundai/Kia/Nissan/Subaru/Toyota will have no incentive whatsoever to maintain above market wages. Once the domestics are finished with the UAW, you’ll see wages and benefits across the entire industry drop like a rock.

You may not be directly involved with the UAW, but I guarantee that you’ve benefited from their efforts. While I don’t wish benefit/wage cuts on anyone (unlike, apparently, a lot of people here), I hope those of you who hate the UAW are as smug when you take a financial hit yourselves after its demise.

The Big 3 automakers and suppliers employ 2,000,000 people and are asking for $14 billion

AIG employs 115,000 people and got $150 billion.

The Big 3 deserve a bailout a hell of a lot more than AIG ever will!!

They absolutely should not get a bailout. Nobody should. They need to stop calling this one a loan, because it isn’t. If they should get a loan, get it from CitiBank because they got a bailout for that purpose. And they should be charged 27% interest the same way I would if I had credit like GM. The way companies increase cash flow is by floating stock, but nobody in their right mind would buy it…so why should the government?

If the Big 3 truly want to stay afloat, Chapter 11 is the only way to make it even possible (yet still not likely). I fear they get the bailout, blow that money, and file bankruptcy anyways. Just look at the airlines. They all did it, and are still struggling, but are at least still operating and on their way.

Thirdly, people won’t stop buying cars overnight if the Big 3 go away. Everyone is so worried about the jobs being lost. Where demand still exists, business and production will expand to meet it. Toyota, Honda, etc will buy up the worthwhile assets. This includes plants, resources, and WORKERS! People working for GM today will work for VW tomorrow. So what if you don’t think it is an American company, people seem to forget that 150,000 people work for foreign automakers in this country. Those jobs are real, and they are HERE, producing a product that people will actually buy. And they are not suffering from the restrictions brought on by the UAW and environmental lobbyists.

We need to stop the progression toward Socialism that we are heading to. Capitalism is the American way. Allowing companies to fail is capitalism at its finest. There is no sense in thriving businesses being taxed to support the failing ones.

Let them go broke. I just bought 2009 auto made in Japan because the price of the USA made was out of sight and the quality was CRAP. They have to make cars at a profit and car that we want to buy, Let them go under if they can’t make enough money to pay for the expenses. AS a tax-payer this is a loan that I would Never fund.

I think automakers should be aware on the coming future plan especially on the climate change issues, and should have plan and promise to rehab or change the way it do today for the benefit of all. It would be a natural way to let go some old baggages and carry a new beginning. On the other hand, Bush Admin should save these automakers in condition that they should promise and have time lines on their changes.

These comments really amuse me! Although I am very spilt on the bailout-bridge loan, or whatever you want to call it-it is just not an economically viable option for the Feds (us tazpayers and the ‘elected officials with nothing more than self-interest) to subsidize this failed/failing industry. It has been strongly pointed out thruout ALL of these comments the opposition of such decision.
One thing of great importance that appears to have been overlooked is the “gray” area of the size of employee and management base that will be affected. At what point does a business become eligible for Federal $$ infusion into it’s capital base?? The overall picture of the US economic business base rest on self-employed small companies with various numbers of employees. I KNOW BECAUSE I OWN ONE/AM ONE!! This is not theory or conjecture. My business is also suffering and I may be forced to cease operations. I only employ 2 people but have a very large customer base that rely on my services. Now suppose I had 3000 people employed with a larger customer base that relied on our company. If I had made inappropiate and decisions in leadership, finances, employee benefits, quality of product, competitive warranties, diversification in related areas, etc. Then it is most likely (if not necessary) for my business for FAIL and FAIL drastically no matter how many banks/creditors I attempted to BEG for more money to continue operating a FAILING business. The Bankers would kick me right out of the office (similiar to that somewhat recent TV commercial by ???).

What I am saying is at what level-if any- should the Government intervene in private enterprise?? If my business fails -along with many others in the next several months, quarters, and years due to the recent financial downfalls cascading more torrential as time goes on, where do I turn. Can all of us small business people march to Washington, or file lawsuits trying to obtain our bridge loans or bailout funds? How many employees and customers do I have to have before this type of action can be taken???

Also remember-Many of the small business owners are people of your community that are very small entities providing a very important service to your community. Support Them! They are real people with REAL houses (not several at mega $$ each), real people with fair hard earned income (NOT MILLIONS OF $$ IN BONUSES,VACATIONS, MEGA SALARIES,etc.) with real children just like your own.

Do you know what GM really stands for???

GET MONEY!!!

Unbelivable ! BIG 3 bankruptcy will do more damage to american peoplen than 50 times Katrina hurricane did… wake up guys !!! tic, tac.

Hey, it doesn’t matter where things are made or who makes them does it?
The rest of the world employ us and will provide all our goods if we just provide…uuummm let’s see, what’s left… we provide the hamburgers? ..Oh, no we already tried to do that… Ok, we provide the food surpluses everyone needs… no, we turned that into auto fuel to burn… hmmm, now what? We provide the computors? No, they are already made forweign…we provide knowledge? No, in much of the civlized world they work harder at learning than we do…
Next time some little country wants to attack us we can always ask China to loan us the money and Japan can make our trucks, tanks, bombs and planes. Of course, there is that little problem of how we could convince the rest of the world to let us determine our own foreign policy with borrowed everything, when we cannot even take care of our own domestic policy…When we no longsr have the MORAL Authority we once had..
WE STILL NEED HEAVY INDUSTRY FOR OUR OWN SECURITY. We need the domestic auto industry to survive.

The two main things consumers finance are homes and autos (trucks, SUVs).
If it was not for craziness related to the repackaging of “mortgage backed” securities and the financial meltdown, the Detroit Big 3 would not be asking for any bailout.
Bailing the big 3 is bailing out US.

HELP THEM AND BUY THEM SOME TIME TO RE-STRUCTURE !

Better to give the bailout money to Honda. It’ll be better used.

If we have 2 money managers, 1 squanders it and the other grows it, creating jobs and excellent products. Who should we give additional resources to?

Heck, give the bailout money to Google.

NO! No rescue financial package for the big 3 auto manufacturers. All that money will only go to the million dollar salaries of top executives and their perks. The money will not trickle down to the employees. One of the reason they are going bankrupt is because they are overpaying those top executives. Cut the execs salaries first before cutting the employees and unions’ salaries.

Bought a 2007 Ford F150 4×4 at MSRP for $25k, with 6K miles worth $11K. My 2006 Corrolla is worth $13K. How can I transfer so much wealth by purchasing vehicles that drop over 50% value in one year. When did a dealer ever treat me fairly, never. Screw the automakers.

NO NO NO!!!! Give the money to Main Street. How much better the big 3 would be doing if everyone in America purchased a new car?!!

Furthermore, if the gov. were so inclined, they could make that stimulus package contain either $100,000 or $50,000 AND a voucher for $30,000 to pruchase a new car from one of the big 3…. Problem solved, all the way around!
Give the money to us. We know what to do with it.

Anyone remember big steel? The steelworkers union almost eliminated it completely from the US. The industry survived, is much smaller, but is much more competitive. It needed to break with the ways of the of the past and reinvent itself. Same thing needs to happen to the Big Three. Maybe it becomes the Last Two or the Only One, but we need capacity out of the system and the companies need to restructure if we want any of these companies to survive. Automaking can make it in the US, just look at the South and try to name a major manufacturer who is not there. Last time I checked they were doing well and were not paying slave wages.

They were asleep while the foreign companies were producing outstanding quality, yet taking huge wages for producing sub par vehicles. UAW has destroyed that industry. Fat cats, let them suffer and crawl back.

Absolutely. If the financial institutions hadn’t created the mess the economy would be stronger and the auto companies would be doing fine. GM, Ford, etc. are makeing great progress. I think we should be giving the billions more we are giving to the financials and insurance companies. What is wrong with this picture?

For those who continue to proclaim, “It’s a loan!” – it is only a loan if they survive long enough to pay it back.

We all know that the banking bailout wasn’t intended to save the jobs of financial institution employees.

For those in the auto industry who are sure that this bailout will protect their jobs, what about all of the other industries? What makes the auto industry where the workers are protected by the UAW more important than those of us in healthcare or technology or retail? What makes your job so much more important than my mine? Until my job was eliminated last month, I also worked 60-70 hour weeks. I worked hard for my college degree, I paid for my health benefits, I made a competitive wage and I always worried about my job being outsourced. Now, tell me why I should spend my money to save your job.

I completely disagree with the bailout plan. What does this teach the companies involved? What did the banks learn from their bailout plan? Nothing, just that if they screw up not to worry because the government will come and save them from their crisis. This just set the banks up to repeat this process later down the line. The same thing will happen with the auto companies, if they get saved now by the government with few repercussions then they will repeat the process again. The Big 3 brought this on themselves because they failed to adapt the business plan when their sales started to decline while the foreign sales started to increase. Let’s look at Honda, they have Honda as their main brand and they also own Acura, which is their luxury brand. Two brands that is it, not 9 brands that GM owns. Honda produces one pickup truck and two SUV’s and Acura produces two SUV’s. GM on the other hand produces 8 different pick-up truck models and 19 SUV models. Why? What a waste of man power, money, space, and time. Many of these models are essentially the same design they just have different logos on the front, which apparently makes them really different from each other. Now I understand that pick-up trucks and SUVs aren’t selling great right now, and that is effecting te foreign companies as well, but not anywhere near as much as GM for example, because they don’t have one model, they have 19 models of SUVs that aren’t selling rather than just one. They are getting hit much harder. They need to consolidate down to one brand Gm and a luxury brand Cadillac. I realize that many people will be losing jobs as a result of this, but it cannot be avoided. In the long run it will be better for the country. It is unfortunate that people will have to be let go, but business is a cutthroat industry, I don’t think Andrew Carnegie or John D. Rockefeller were concerned about people losing or gaining jobs when they were building successful businesses. It is just something that has to be done for the betterment of the country. Not to mention that a bailout plan would further raise taxes for the United States public.

A failure of one or more of the big three will hurt a lot of people, maybe me – no real argument. Here’s the question, they have been dying slowly for years, they cannot compete long term without major structural change (Chapter 11?). With no conditions for change, can someone explain why this is just a few month delay of the inevitable and therefore not a huge waste of taxpayer money?

Simple the UAW was given a chance to be a partner they chose otherwise.

GM should go chaper 11 and then all contracts including the UAW’s need to be renegociated.

The big three have their R&D headquartered in the US employing 24,000 engineers and scientists. The foreign automakers have only 3,500 low level engineering jobs in the US. The majority of their R&D is performed in Japan, Germany, Korea. Another reason to support the domestic based automakers with a bridge LOAN.

Ask anyone whom works at an auto repair or body shop about how each vehicle is different. Why can’t the same small parts be the same on many different vehicles. look at how many tire sizes are out there. Also whom makes the most tax free profit from short sales of auto stocks when the companies are bankrupt?

HERE IS WHAT I THINK IS A MUCH BETTER APPROACH THAN A BRIDGE LOAN TO NOWHERE. IN THIS CONCEPT, THE GOVERNMENT CONTRACT TO BUY A LARGE NUMBER OF CARS FROM DETROIT. THIS WOULD SUPPORT NOT ONLY THE AUTO COMPANIES BUT THE OVERALL ECONOMY. DETAILS ARE CONTAINED IN THE LETTER BELOW.

November 18, 2008

A letter to the Congress of the United States:

This idea stems from my opposition to the proposal to give a bridge loan to the auto industry from the US treasury. While I am opposed to that idea I recognize the severe damage which might occur if the domestic auto industry were to actually go out of business. Even in a traditional chapter 11 situation for the big three (or one of the big three), the fallout in the supply chain would be devastating. However, I oppose the currently proposed “bailout” because I believe that a “bridge loan to nowhere” is no better than “the bridge to nowhere.”

There is also no way to guarantee that the money would be spent in a manner compatible with the specific interests of the US since cash is fungible and could go anywhere in the various companies. Congress seems to be fixated only on provisions to the loan which limit bonuses or executive pay rather than finding a way to spend the money to bolster our overall domestic economy.

The idea is for the U. S. Government to contract for 1 million cars from the big three during the calendar year of 2009 and another 1 million cars in the calendar year 2010. This number is based on the fact that 1 million cars should be worth roughly 25 billion dollars (the amount of the proposed bridge loan).

This idea is based on the concept that while these three companies who are crippled by burdensome labor contracts, poor management design decisions in the past and incredible future liabilities for pension and retiree medical benefits, they are equally suffering from a significant lack of volume in the current period. This concept is intended to address that volume issue and to support not only these three companies but also to support the supply chain which services them and is at least as important to the domestic economy as the auto industry itself. With cash (a bridge loan) going into specific companies no benefit will result in the balance of the domestic economy.

There would be several unusual provisions in the contracts. First of all the government would prepay for the cars at the beginning of each year. This would make the money function similar to a loan. The delivery of the cars would be spread out in the amount of 83,333 cars per month. The contract would be for only the most fuel efficient models, this would be calculated such that when these cars enter the current total American fleet it would lower the overall mpg of the total fleet. There are over 250,000,000 licensed passenger vehicles in the US. More than half of these are passenger cars (the balance being SUV’s, pickups or trucks). The national fleet is old at a mean age of about 9 years with cars at about 8.5 years. Currently manufactured cars are much more fuel efficient than the older models.

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The distribution of orders between Ford, GM and Chrysler would be based on their individual capacity to assemble these cars in the US but there would be a bidding process. If for instance, GM has 50% of the capacity then the aim would be to give them 50% of the order but they would be allowed to receive between 40% and 60% based on a bidding process between the 3 companies with the low bidder getting an extra share and the high bidder getting a lower share. Participating companies would also have to guarantee that the domestic content of these cars is at least 85% US.

If at anytime during the contract the company wished to lower the volume of cars to be delivered, they could do so by returning the equivalent amount of money. There would also have to be a “bankruptcy provision” to put the government first in line in the event of a chapter filing. I further think consideration should also be given to the inclusion of the foreign owned auto manufacturers with assembly plants located within the US but the 85% total domestic content is important to the concept.

The government would have to devise a method of distributing these cars in creative and unique manners such as described below:

1- Replace the US government fleet at an accelerated rate. This would then allow the government to sell their current fleet on the secondary market, regaining some of the initial investment. Since this fleet is already designated as high mpg vehicles the overall average for the country would be further lowered as both the new and used cars would likely displace older vehicles.

2- Offer to sell cars at a loss to State and local governments. If, for instance, the cost of a vehicle was $20,000 to the government the sale to a state or local government could be $10,000. Since the state or local government could sell their existing fleet they would likely break even and have a newer fleet. To the extent this is implemented the national average mpg would drop further.

3- Find worthy citizens to sell to at a discount (loss to the federal government). This would have to pass many sensitivity tests but I think returning military or university graduates with very high grades are examples of how this could be done.

4- Use excess cars as trading currency for foreign trade. Perhaps sell them to Iraq or Russia in exchange for oil.

5- Sell excess cars on e-bay or similar method. This one needs more creativity.

This concept is obviously not fully vetted and many interest groups would have objections. Local car dealers are one but the distribution could be handled through them thereby giving them a bit of the expanded pie. The big three companies and the UAW might feel that supporting the supply chain is not as beneficial as supporting just them but I disagree and I think the public would feel as I do..

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By way of introduction I am a retired executive from a 41 year career in the American basic steel industry. My primary residence is Michigan but I spend winters in Arizona. I am 69 years old, married with two children and 6 grandchildren. I was born and raised in Iowa and educated as an Electrical Engineer at the University of Notre Dame in Indiana. I have also lived in Illinois, Indiana, Texas, Ohio and Pennsylvania during my working career.

I encourage you as a member of Congress to consider this and any other worthwhile alternative solutions to this difficult dilemma before taking any action which would “just throw money at the problem”.

Thank you for listening,

James L. Wareham

It’s all been said before, lousy cars, high labor costs, lack of planning and quality of management, over production, etc. Chapter 11 is the only way for the automakers to re-engineer their position. Chapter 11 would bring quicker results and no taxpayer money. Besides if they make more fuel efficient vehicles doesn’t dictate that I will purchase them. Let the blimp take a hit.

NO NO. NO. NO. NO!!!!!
Give main street either money or vouchers for any of the big three. Problem solved! If everyone in America bought a new car, do you think any of the Big 3 would still be in trouble??!!??

OK, now this may blow the back of your head off…..What do you think would happen if they gave a larger stimulus package to all Americans, like to the tune of $100,000 or %50,000. Now, how do you think the banks, etc. would be if all americans had the money to pay their mortgages?!! Problem solved!

yes the auto industry should get a loan. We spend 10 billion a month overseas fighting a war That we should not have atarted we cant find money for your own people?

No help for auto industry means GREAT DEPRESSION for the U.S.A. The rich will love it. Then they can buy up everything for peanuts like they did in the 1930’s. God help us. The republicans in the south sure as hell won’t.

Todays unions are simply havens for slouches. Unions served thier purpose years ago. They are not as important as today as when sweatshops were so prevalent. The non union auto mfg’s down south producing foriegn cars don’t have the same problems. Make the unions give some big concessions! All we’re doing is bailing out the UAW! I have a GM right now(as awlways). I will be getting a Toyota Solare next year when my lease runs out.

Of course they deserve a break since they’re asking for loans, which is completley different than what the banks and crooks on Wall Street received. The automotive industry was caught in the credit crunch caused by the subprime mess. Don’t forget the the domestics have four manufacturers in the top 10 positions in the 2008 JD Powers Vehicle Dependability Study. General Motors and Ford have more Hybrid vehicles than Nissan and Honda.

Bailout or no bailout, the big 3 are in a lot of trouble and there will be a tremendous amount of lost jobs no matter what the federal governement decides to do. In its current state, the big 3 are building cars that no one wants or needs during the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. Why post-pone the inevitible and waste tax-payer money to bail out companies that are failures ? I feel sorry for the workers of American automakers but the reality is that many other American families in other industries are losing their jobs as well.

No bailout for the auto industry. No bailout for Wall Street. America and capitalism are about competition. Competition breeds strength, will and tenacity. The strong thrive and the weak must work harder to get more competitive. A bailout allows the weak flourish while standing in the way of those that are hungrier and more deserving.

Yes, It is the govenrment that failed to properly govern the credit markets and the energy market so we end up where our domestic companies have no access to financing and are forced to sell into a market that is inherently unstable due to wild swings in energy prices.

yes they should get a bail out not because they deserve it but because it would kill the economy. HELP THE AUTO WORKERS!

Iam so tired of hearing so called americans bashing the Big 3.This is the heart of America how can you sit back and watch millions of jobs go? Not only will jobs go but millions of dollars on Old newsboys or Salvation Army or United Way and many other Big 3 donations. Im sure non of you money hungry republicans will ever need to use.I can only hope you will need some sort of bail out someday.Maybe we should all just continue to buy NON American until we are all poisoned and broke. Let the foriegn companies take over our Country.We need to stop sending jobs over seas.Toyota has a no layoff policy that is why they dont have a jobs bank.But they will pay them the same amount to sweep a floor.To me that is a jobs bank.We as tax payers need this bail out.We spend millions on other countries when disater strikes NOW spend it at home.

No loans to the big three then hang on for a real depression, the last real manufacturing will be gone by way of bankrupcy chapter 11 then chapter 7 as one after the other follows along with the parts suppliers,dealers and repair operations. The northern States unemployment will skyrocket as the domino effect takes hold affecting the unenploymentliabilities, financial industry and tax revenues across the states. then the Germans and Japanese will need to start buildind our tanks and humvees with the help of the supporters of honda, bmw, hyundai munufacturing with dirt cheap paid employee suppotted by money from the goverments of ownership and huge tax breakes and gifts sponsered by republican senators of these great southern states where they ron the education system to pay honda,bmw and the like to put their factories there and benifit from the cheap labor .

Folks across this country! I am afraid this has far more deep scares for a whole generation than we may believe. I watched the hearings and listened to all our Senators and Congressman and the Auto sector go back and forth. I agreed they should have sold their jets long ago? one thing really burned me! everyone in that room was wearing nicer clothes than what I own, period! I am middle class will always be middle class and believe in middle class. The one thing we have to face is the double standard for the wealthy and the middle class. The financial sector started this mess we are in by making bad loans they were not grilled before the House or the Senate. Some even made Americans aware of this, lets slice and dice this,#1 the housing sector was overinflated on prices! #2 bad loans abound, #3 make loans then forclose and regain the property and collect from the middle class taxpayers who now are out the property and now have nothing to show for it. #4 sell said property back to middle class at a lower price. These are facts that we as middle class Americans need to really consider. Someone said something I absolutely understand. The current economic conditions are affecting the middle to upper middle class now. Basically folks, we as middle class have no power for change when we stand alone, we only have bargaining power when we unite. This is what we must do if we hope to ensure our children have a future at the middle class level. I don’t have the stomach for multiple family living arrangements. The cost of living continues to go up and the quality of living is going down. If government continues to be allowed run our manufacturing base into the ground then eventually we all will be left with the same fate. The facts are the Saudi oil production costs are about $2.00 a barrel, our costs for new wells in west Texas are about $60.00 a barrel. My grandfather lost 81% of his retirement when the company he worked for filed for chapter 11. Maybe some folks remember Fort Wayne Indiana and IH Harvester. Rest his soul, I do remember! and just because I changed sectors to work in I still am involved in Manufacturing. Many jobs here have moved across the southern borders into Mexico. I visited one, anyone know where Ojinaga Chih. Mexico is. Folks I have visited there and let me be the first to tell you, If you think for one minute we can compete with their labor costs you are very sadly mistaken, we cannot!!!!!! period end of story. Eventually we will all be affected, Folks I really have no preference when it comes to what state builds what vehicles as long as it is American made. We the people for the people. We all are guilty of not supporting one another at times. However this one deserves the middle class supporting middle class.

As tax payers we will be penalized from either decision. If we let these auto companies have the money, then national debt effectively increases and inflation will likely result from the cost of this ‘bailout’ sometime in the future. If we do nothing then these companies fail and we loose the tax revenue from all of the interconnected businesses dealings that effects many states at the local level (e.g. auto dealers, part suppliers). The fact of the matter remains, however, that this situation IS THE FAULT OF THESE COMPANIES AND NOT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. We get screwed either way just like the other bailouts where someone somewhere decided to implement some unethical business practices. Here the issue is more a lack of being competitive and too many expenses to sell cars cheaply. If US cars were ~30-40% less than comparable foreign vehicles I most certainly would buy them despite the quality issues. No they are not the same quality for the price. To put things into perspective they’ve had 20 years to play catch up in quality:price with foreign makers and have not suceeded. It’s game over for them in the long term unless something
DRAMATICALLY CHANGES.

I don’t think the Big 3 should receive a bailout. For over 20 years, the executives at these companies have been fully aware that their company was going downhill, yet they never did anything the turn the situation around. Instead, they continue to receive huge bonuses they don’t deserve, and waste money by flying around in expensive corporate jets rather than flying in an economy seat on a major airline like the rest of us. However, if they do not receive a bailout and these companies fail, then 2.9 million people whose jobs are dependent upon the airline industry will lose their jobs and the United States will most likely plunge into another Great Depression. The lesser of the two evils is to give them a loan, however, a requirement should be that all three companies be forced into major corporate and systems reorganization.

Rather than bailing out the Big Three by giving them the money. Use the money to buy cars for the American taxpayers. Select owners of cars that are starting to fail emissions, have poor gas mileage, or are too old and replace them with newer cars that have better gas mileage that produce less emissions. It would reduce gas consumption, clean the air, save money for consumers, and give a bit of revenue to the Big Three. Then demand that the Big Three get their act together within a specific timeframe or let them rot if they continue to fail.

So funny we hear people complaining all the time about (lack of) wage growth, and now we are complaining that some blue collar folks are making to much. But belive me I’m not a union fan in the least. They served there purpose in this country but they really do more harm then good at this point.

Regardless I think Joe M comment is what people really don’t understand. Worse yet it is not only the federal govt that pays but states who lose income taxes at a time when they are running budget deficits.

I don’t think the govt should bail them out if they can’t be viable, but to allow potentially hundreds of thousands out of jobs at exactly the wrong time makes worse sense. Perhaps you call it a controlled liquidation that potentially takes a few years to take effect. But as long as any funds given to them is lower than the cost of lost taxes it is likely something you have to do in the short term.

I’d appreciate it if you left Ford out of the so-called ‘bailout” discussion. Yes, we were in front of Congress, but that was to support the industry and to only ask for access to a line of credit if the economy worsened or one of our competitors went out of business.

In the defeated bill, Ford was not part of the cash loan consideration. You can read Ford’s statement at: http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=29549

And if you’re interested in what Ford is doing to succeed (including putting together financing and a restructuring plan 2 years ago), please see http://the fordstory.com.

Scott Monty
Global Digital Communications
Ford Motor Company

Lets call a spade a spade. This is not capitalism this is socialism. When the govt steps in and saves private industry, whether it be banks or the auto industry it is socialism. I empathize with the plight of the “workers”, but if we are truly capitalists we will allow these companies/banks/etc to fail and build fresh better industry to follow. Otherwise lets just call ourselves the next USSR and let the govt bail out whichever industry needs it.

I believ bankruptcy will allow the companies to do the restructuring to their cost system necessary if they are to survive in the future. The UAW needs to understand getting rid of teh job bank which guarantees employees a wage even if laid off is not doable. If I get laid off I won’t continue getting paid. In addition the expenses associated with overgenerous retiree benefits need to be cut. Otherwise any bailout or restructuring will be doomed to fail.

The call is for legislation that sets labor standards all across America, Unions that cater to and pit one group against the other have had their day. Look at what they created by their antics in Europe in early 20th century.
Does America really want to travel that road, or does the Constitution come first?

This bailout has nothing to do with the UAW or Management. This is the Administration putting water wings on a sinking ship, just hoping to keep the Wall Street Wizards propping up the DOW JONES for another month before they are out of office. This is fantasy.

Be fair to tax payers and no more bail out please! Chapter 11 is the best solution for the Big 3.

The administration needs to step in. The Union bashing makes no sense. Without Unions, we have no working class with healthcare, safe working conditions, etc. It is laughable the way that everyone is so willing to toss away manufacturing jobs but have no qualms about giving $700 billion plus to the financial world (which created the mess we are in through nearly criminally negligent conduct). I must have missed it when the Senate demanded that workers in the banking and insurance industry take pay cuts and cut their benefits in order to receive government assistance. Playing petty politics when the entire country is in turmoil is pathetic.

I am an autoworker. It surprises me how opinionated people have become on certain issues but yet are able to turn a blind eye on others. I am saddened that we have become a nation of whiners who actually believe that if its reported by the media then by god it must be true! We can watch a senior citizen being run over on You Tube and nobody attempts to assist him. We can watch kids beat each other on the internet and are not outraged. We are fighting two wars at the cost of a billion dollars a week and hear nothing about it. We have given the banking industry billions and still hear how they continue to abuse it. We want to save homeowners who overbought and signed ARM’s. The list could go on and on. You want an electric car and our power grid throughout the United States can’t even handle air conditioners in the summer without rolling brownouts! You want us to make small fuel efficient cars but if oil continues to drop you will forget we ever had an energy crisis and will all want SUV’s. You want “GREEN” cars but continue to throw garbage out of your car windows! I am not begging for a bailout, loan, handout or whatever the media catch phrase happens to be. I am too proud for that – I am an AMERICAN!

All of my dealer car purchase experiences have included being lied to, offerred “bait and switch” tactics, and a encountering a variety of other shady sales tactics. I have zero sympathy for these folks. They have traditionally treated customers like idiots, and now expect me to empathize with them? Let ‘em all go down in flames, including the greedy UAW leadership. They have sold their employees down the river while the union leadership gets paid hundreds of thousands in salaries each.

You have just got to notice, practically every single opinion written that favors the give-away bailout (sorry, “loan” -which will be forgiven or lost later) is from Michigan or some other auto producing state. Their stories are designed to make the rest of us want to pay for their big buyouts, great healthcare forever, fat retirements, ridiculous labor practices, etc. AND have federally protected jobs – none of this is like the situation the rest of have and is not fair!
Probably after this post, they will stop signing with the state they really live in.

No government bailout!

Some commenters have suggested that the oil companies who directly benefit from the auto industry should come to the aid of the auto industry. Good idea!

Giving the auto industry $15 billion now is just throwing good money after bad. What is the government’s bailout exit strategy? The $15 billion will last until mid- to late-spring at which time the auto industry will need another infusion of cash. This process might be repeated until GM and Crysler eventually fail anyway.

Another idea: since this is being portrayed as a national crisis, let’s consider something like war bonds…but the bonds would be backed (sy up to 70%) by the oil companies, the railroads, the states with the largest auto industry employment, other large corporations that benefit directly from the auto industry and finally the Federal Government with a role equal to the all the other backers combined. Then, the public and pension funds, and other investors would vote with their investment dollars. If the public felt the existing Detriot auto industry should be bailed out, they will support the bailout by buying the bonds which would be insured/back up to 70% by the a large government/private industry consortium. The consortium would oversee the investment and require that Detroit become competitive. It would be in the bondholders interest to buy the vehicles produced by Detroit if the cars are the designs need and wanted and competitive. Then the Federal Gov. could give tax credits to taxpayers who bought vehices (whether from Detroit or others) which are certified to meet national goals for mileage standards and carbon emission standards. Which cars will a bondholder buy?

Otherwise, we must recognize that the public is currently tapped out….over the last 4-5 years they bought houses and cars they couldn’t realy afford….many bought cars they didn’t really need and couldn’t afford…the buyers were fell for the 0% interest sales pitichs and bought the cars (they couldn’t really afford) because they didn’t want to pass up what they thought was a uncommon opportunity to save on a car purchase…..with housing losing value,401(k)s tanking and high unemployment and late model cars in the driveway, how does a temporary government bailout motivate cash-strapped buyers to buy cars from a company in trouble that might not be around in two years to honor a warranty?????…

The financial institutions that just received a bail out with no questions asked had just as much mis-management as the Big 3. Why different standards for the Auto Industry? We cannot afford to allow so many people to be out of work as it will adversly affect all of us, even the rich.

Assist the Big 3 but hold them accountable and review their progress by quarter to ensure money given as a loan is being utilized as they stated was necessary.

We should have scrutinized the financial bailout the same way we are the auto industry loan.

DO WE ALL WANT TO WORK AND SHOP AT WAL-MART??? I think not. We need to take action and hold everyone receiving tax payer aid accountable.

In a free-market economy, the best businesses are successful and those that are poorly managed fail. I believe that the Big 3 have marketed products that didn’t sell, failed to reorganize their structures to yield a cost advantage, and focused too heavily on the consumption hungry American. It is not and should not be the responsibility of the government or the taxpayers to bail out the automakers or any of the financial companies for that matter. Responsible fiscal management was altogether absent with these companies and they, like others in the past, should deal with the consequences of their actions; not me, you, or anyone else.

Its not personal, it’s only business! It’s America were you make it or you break it. And these CEO’s along with the other CEO’s smashed the hell out of it. The workers getting layed-off seen it happening but turned a blind eye to it as long as their big money kept coming in. I have no sympanthy for any of them. They got greedy and it backfired, now live with it!!!! For the last 30yrs I had to raise a family on 30k a year, busting my butt to just barely stay afloat. Personally I hope they crash and burn!! Let them walk in my shoes for 10 years

As a UAW skilled tradesman it sure is interesting to see everybody bashing the UAW and Big 3. Thanks for your 2 cents worth!
That’s right. The Automobile Industry Bridge Loan is only 2 percent of the financial industry Bail Out.
The Bail Out of the financial industry is where the outrage should be.
The Fed and Wall street made loans easy to get for years and then pulled in the reigns so fast that we all wound up in this mess.
Just like everyone else the car companies are having a hard time dealing with it. Sales of big ticket items like automobiles naturally suffer during economic downturns.
The US automobile manufacturers earned the title of “the big 3″ a long time ago because they have been major contributors to the economic prosperity of the United States for a very long time. Yes, as of late they have lost some market share and prestige. But their contribution to our nations wealth and security is still a long and distinguished one. They are still an asset to our country.
Legacy costs (the cost of pensions and health care for our retirees) is what makes some people say that each UAW worker gets paid 40 % more than our competition. The fact is, our wages are much closer to being equal than that.
Here is some news for all of the people who that think putting the Big 3, UAW workers and retirees down for the count is a good idea; We have had your back. If we go down, you guys will be soon to follow. I mean your wages, benefits, working conditions and quality of life. I mean the value of your home, the value of your pensions and stocks and the quality of your living standards. I mean the ablility of your country to defend itself and the level of national pride.
For those of you who have insulted me and my co-workers, my company and it’s management I will say this; Yes my CEO makes a lot of money. I make a good wage too. Is that why you sound so hateful, jealous and rude?
We are the backbone of the middle class. We have helped you to keep your head up all these years. We have championed the advancement of the common man in this country.
I hope the thrill of watching us lose our livelyhood first is worth it to you because if it happens there will be no joy for the rest of you without our support.

I feel badly for the effects of irresponsible management of the automakers. I think the UAW should wise up and agree to any preconditions to a bailout. The UAW make ridiculously large amount of money for a high school graduate or equivalent. Add to that the benefits they get on top of that.

I don’t think the UAW deserve a bailout. I think most people get on the UAW because we all know how overpaid they are. We’re rewarding mediocry.

Even if the big 3 get a bail out folks will still not buy the product because it is not a reliable product. Maybe the money should go to the people that will be impacted by the big 3’s lack of doing the right thing and let them go or give it to another company willing to buy them out and provide us with products we actually want to buy.

In February of this year GM offered a buyout to “all” of its hourly workers in the US (74000). They are the biggest and by no means have anything close to the number of US employees I keep hearing about. Chapter 11 doesnt mean that they will all suddenly lose their jobs. Just look at the airline industry. United, Delta, Northwest, and US Air all filed chapter 11. Did we see any government bailouts there? No. And each one of those companies had between 50,000 and 100,000 employees. All of which took big hits in pay and benefits. The economy didnt collapse, a few lost their jobs, and we all still get to fly. So I surely dont feel sorry for the auto industry. Let them slim down under bankruptcy protection and hopefully emerge as a leaner better run oranization.

Why would a really successful business (like an oil company) loan a failing business billions of dollars? Probably for the same reason you don’t loan a homeless person $20,000 for cheap housing and an adult education class, because the liklihood of getting paid back is very low.

Also, the price of oil has fallen by almost 60%, although the costs of extracting and distributing oil remain fairly constant. The oil companies are probably dipping into last year’s profits themselves right about now.

How about letting the oil-producing kingdoms pick up the mess with the billions that have been siphoned out of the US with its legion of gas guzzlers. Don’t nurture these massive financial hangovers – the model is bound to fail. Alternative, clean fuel transportation is key to our future, and these monstrous companies in their current form will take billions and billions more to survive let alone transform. Break them up and the most promising pieces will certainly be picked up and evolve into the new leaders by fully exploiting new technoolgy.

The proposed government “loan” in this case is also a “bailout,” just like pudding is also food.

For example: Some event happens to you and you need money to keep your apartment and pay for your tools or equipment to keep working (assuming you don’t get put out of a job which is very likely in this economy because nobody is buying much). Your uncle offers you a $50,000 cash loan, pay it back whenever you can, if you can.

Gentle readers, this means your uncle has bailed you out big time with a loan. Terminology aside, should the auto company get this loan/bailout? Not unless their plan is to cut production and workers, because they are paying too much to make too many cars that not enough people are buying. Such a plan, however, is better implemented under bankruptcy. Maybe people won’t buy a car from a bankrupt company, but paying a company to avoid bankruptcy so that they can make too many cars that people won’t buy either seems like a worse idea.

I can’t say what i really want to say cause i’d probably get arrested. This whole bailout nation stuff is a bunch of crap!!! No one should get any help from the tax payers of this great nation and that includes the banks. I’m so angry at the people in our government that think this is ok. You all must be out of your freaking minds! You all just lost my future vote!

I am a UAW retiree. I was born during the depression years in 1937 and expect to die during the depression years that are coming. I believe that the American people and their politicians have lost their way and are in need of an attitude adjustemnt. A deep and severe depression will do that just as it did for my fathers generation. They woke up to what was really important to a happy life.And it didn’t include greed and selfishness.
A valued poem of that day goes like this:
Thank god for dirty dishes
for they have a tale to tell
While others may go hungry
We are eating well
With health, home and happiness
We shouldn’t want to fuss
By this stack of evidence
Gods been good to us.
This poem in a nut shell dicribes the life to come for ordinary people.

Let the Big 3 and the UAW fail. Chapter 11 will help clean up the mess, and it might allow a leaner machine to rise from the ashes.

The business model failed, the labor contracts failed. The US automakers along with the UAW have raped the American public long enough. I don’t my tax dollars should go to bailout the GREEDY UAW and it’s workers.

Companies come and go when they have stuff their heads in the sand, good buy big 3 and the UAW, you made your greedy bed, now sleep in it.

As someone with A LOT of family members that work in the auto industry I can tell you that they do in fact get paid an obscene amount of money for what they do. Cut their wages and healthcare and the companies will thrive.

Do they deserve a bail out?
The big three have made major changes! the UAW has made major concessions! In all areas such as Quality Dependability Buyer Satisfaction and on and on the American automobile is among the best! Consumers Reports started actually evaluating Toyota again after record amounts of silent recalls. Yes thats right they had a policy of just giving Toyota top Ranks without subjecting the vehicles to the same tests as all other maufacturers. If it wasnt for the Mortgage crisis destroying the middle class credit and the financial industry crumbling then an American icon, something the american people should be proud of was set to be on top again. Why is is it so trendy to be so negative of an American Product?

Look at the wages the UAW in the big 3, they are out pace the wages of the middle class. Look at the map on CNN of jobs affected, Michigan ($65,119) is on average 2X the wages of 42 of the 50 states listed. In some cases 3 to 5X the wages of other auto workers. UAW is no different than the Republicans, you want your cake and eat it too?

Ok, 1st the American taxpayers “bailout” banks who charge patrons excess fees etc, and give crap in return for using your money. Meanwhile, CEOs jump with golden parachutes!

Now, 2nd the American taxpayers are now having to “bailout” the big 3 automakers, meanwhile, CEO’s jump with golden parachutes and live elaborate lifestyles etc.

Now, 3rd Big Oil has made record profits, while raping the american consumer during the bush administration..

The picture is clear: CEO’s of big oil, banking and automakers need to be held accountable!! Bailing these fools should not be an option on “my dime” or our children’s dime! These people have destroyed the American economy by greed and greed alone.

LET THEM FALL! I’m unemployed – jump in good ole boys the water is nice and warm from where I sit! Maybe, once everything falls maybe, we can rebuild from scratch.

If the big 3 fall, (or two of them), the foreign maker and hopefully Ford will pick up the slack and hire more.
I heard Kia is expanding here in Georgia. Yes, “Expanding”, hiring more, in this economy.
Also, there will be good American entrepreneur who will start a new auto company that compete, in a non-union state.
There are some daring souls making electric cars already and plan to make mass production ones. They should receive a good loan and start building factories.
The government bail out may delay or discourage this entrepreneurship. If government is backing the old-3, who can compete against the US government, which, can print money?

I don’t understand why Chrysler is considered in this bailout, since it is privately held by Cerberus, a hedge fund. So who gets the money??

It intrigues me that no matter what the US auto industry does its wrong, did they produce a punch of crap in the late 70’s early 80’s and gas guzzlers in the 90’s. Yes as a kid my family owned several pieces of Detroit’s junk in the 70’s I owned a few gas-guzzlers in the 90’s. No one was beating these guys up in the 90’s when money was flowing out of the Big Three into shareholders pockets because of the mark up in a SUV.

At one point Detroit started moving parts and assembly plants off shore to be more competitive with the Japanese imports being produced in very low cost low wage countries Detroit was demonized for cutting good paying American jobs and running sweat shops. The Japanese however they had a good business model…

The Japanese, Koreans and many of the other car companies have no legacy cost foreign governments take care of retirement and the benefits that come with retirement. Many of these low cost countries have socialized health care or none at all, we all know the argument for that in the US. Do we want their huge pension plans dumped on the taxpayers anyone remember the Steel Industry a few years ago…?

At the end of the day they will get the money and they should, all of this is posturing on the hill is about some of our elected leaders being able to say, “I told you so” if the Big Three come back for more money. The chances are good they will be back, what’s another 25 billion or so, just keep printing money and one day we will be one of the low cost manufacturing countries.

I just saw Professor Moricci shouting out on CNN that it is all the autoworkers fault that the senate walked away from a deal. Bullfeathers!!!
The UAW was willing to sit down and negotiate as part of the overall package.
One reason autoworkers costs are so expensive in this country is because of our overpriced irrational healthcare system. It is a shame that loudmouths like Moricci and Senator Corker do not have the sense to step up to the plate and solve a problem instead of just scapegoating blue collar workers. Interesting how few strings were attached to the hundreds of billions out to Wall Street, the banks, and AIG.

NO Bailout!!! Wagner gave himself a 15 million dollar bonus when GM had a 64% lost.And Nardelli put GE and Home Depot in the ground and he did the same with Chrysler.What the __ __ __ K!!What about all the people who made the wrong choice on the mortage loan did they bail out them hell no.
John,New Jersey

The bottom line is that the average taxpayer will determine the fate of the Big Three. If the bailout proposal is not palatable the average taxpayer, our vote will be not to buy their products.

Since gas prices are down we cant build enough SUVs and Trucks! If Toyota and Nissan could compete in those markets they would be in the same place as the big three. But since they cant for some reason that makes them smarter?
Who says GM is building vehicles no one wants. Until this year GM sells more vehicles than any other manufacturer. So how is it GM is the 1 manufacturer if no one likes there vehicles?

I live in Michigan and like most that live here have a direct connection to the Big Three. My brother worked for Ford (passed away), my brother-in-law is a retiree from Ford, my father is a retiree from Great Lakes Steel. I have another brother-in-law that currently is employed by Ford and I have countless friends that work for one of the three. Those that do not work for the three will be effected if they go under especially in this state. After saying all of that I can also say I am sick and tired of these three and how they have failed. I will also say that this is not a loan, bailout of any of these three. This is a bailout of the UAW plain and simple. These arrogant legends in their own mind works cared then they would realize what they are doing to the country and to those within their own states. They do not care about anyone else–they only care that they makes these high wages and have these fantastic benefits. All of this mess did not happen overnight this has been brewing for a good 10 years now. What has happened now is the fact that it’s a “perfect storm”. Everything piled up and now something has to give. I have to agree with Mr. Shelby about these three being dinosaurs. In 1979 they should have seen the writing on the wall when the gas prices went up and all these gas hogs were a curse. Over the last 10 years they have flooded the market with SUV’s and trucks that used a huge amount of gas. They continued to build, build, and then build some more all the time sales were going down, down, down. No one used their heads in any of this. Then lets bring the government in this. They places a thousand and one restriction on the vehicles for emissions and everything else they could think of. For every vehicle they kicked the costs up to covering all this stuff. Amazing how overseas the three can manufacturer a vehicle that gets 40mpg and people want to buy it—but not here. Some of the reason these three are in this mess is due to greed by all the parties. We have lived way beyond our means and taken everything for granted. I do not agree with bailing these three out but at this point something needs to be done. If they indeed get the money it should come with a heavy price. Stop the useless and stupid over production of vehicles. What’s the difference between a MKS and a Edge? One has more blinge than the other but they are basically the same car—-stop it!
Take the two and make one vehicle. A CEO making millions is shameful and has to be stopped. Keep Washington in Washington and not some backseat driver in these vehicles—stop all the restrictions. Lastly. The unions take more concessions. It doesn’t mean that instead of a 30 minute break they only get a 15 minute. They must give up some pay, benefits, and take some pride in actually working hard for 8 hours. If all of these factors wanted to succeed and move forward maybe they need to look at the foreign car makers. Every single time I have purchased a new vehicle( all American) they love me coming in the door but forget who I ma when I have to come back for something. They act like they are doing me a favor by helping me when in fact I am the one that is doing them the favor. God help us here in Michigan if these three are not helped because it will be a case of “last one out turn out the lights”. I also know that if they receive help it CANNOT be business as usual for anyone. They and all of us MUST work smarter and better and start being a solution to the problem—and not the problem.

This is a great look into ‘the change we need’.
The House Democrats write a sweetheart deal for the UAW without input from the Republicans except President Bush. They force it through The House. The Senate Republicans attempt to make the UAW commit on something and the deal falls apart. Sen. Dingle calls the Senate Republicans ‘unpatriotic’ and the entire Congress goes home for the holiday. Obviously our elected representatives don’t believe that this issue is important.
Now we come to the President. He will ultimately do his job but he has fallen into the trap. The UAW knows that they only have to make it until 1/20/09 – then the Congress that they have paid so much for will come in and pass a bailout package that will require them to do absolutely nothing and the taxpayers will take that ‘haircut’ that Pelosi has been talking about. The auto companies won’t be any healthier or competitive and the drama will go on for as long as our elected representatives allow or until we do the smart thing and elect reasonable people.
I hope President Bush provides the TARP money to save the economy BUT I hope he does so only after the UAW commits to reasonable concessions that will provide parity – and in 2009 not 2050! And watch out folks, it’s not the average wage, it’s the wage and benefit costs.
Just wait for ‘card check’!

Why don’t the Big 3 get a loan from the oil companies? It wasn’t that long ago that the media were bashing Big Oil for billions in obscene profits.

Check the math: One million people will be out of work, each person would have paid $17000 per year income tax, state tax and sales tax plus each person will receive unemployment of $200/wk.
Cost of bankrupty per year to the gov is equal to 1000000 people x (17000 + 200×52) = $ 27.4 billion.
Mr. Obama should appoint me Secretary of the Finance.

You are dead WRONG about the UAW. They have and stand ready again to do their part in this deal. The damned Republicans want to turn them into serfs like they would ALL labor in this country.

I’m growing weary of folks claiming “it’s not a bailout, it’s a loan”: Wrong. If GM doesn’t get a multi billion dollar infusion, they won’t be able to carry forward as a business. Excuse me if such an infusion shouldn’t be called EXACTLY what it is … a “Bailout”. Legacy expenses, UAW delusions of maintaining their standard of living, unfavorable trade agreements and lack of proper marketing for the econo-boxes drove us to the brink. We need a competitive and innovative auto industry to maintain a staple of hope in our manufacturing base, but not at the expense of Socializing the industry. Our Great Grandparents and Grandparents didn’t leave their blood on foreign soil to see our generation fall headlong, at breakneck speed, into Socialism. Will it be tough? … heck yes, but let’s endure, take the pain and demand a restructuring of our auto industry to innovate, compete and champion all that which we know to be … American.

The problem is there is excess capacity to produce automobiles in this country. We produce more vehicles than consumers want/need to consume. Period.

The solution is to produce less. Which companies will produce less? The Big Three produce more vehicles that consumers have little interest in. Plus because of their cost structure, they have a harder time reducing costs.

Bailing out Detroit will only prolong what is really needed.

American consumers are not happy with American made vehicles. And we vote with our checkbooks. Management & Labor have painted themselves into this corner. Now they want taxpayers to give them a way out.

We have a legal framework in this country for such problems, reorganization through Chapter 11. That is (in my opinion) the only real solution.

Any thing else is the same as you and I saying we’ll start our diet tomorrow…

I can understand people not wanting more taxpayer money spent on buisness
mistakes, but how do you want to spend your money? On saving a large part of our production base, or unempoyment benefits and welfare payments to upwards of 3 million people that are really not trained to do anything else.
We gave 700 billion to the financial base without to many real questions as to what and where that money was going or went, and they did not really save anywhere near 3 million jobs did they.

It is a sad day when the nation cannot find its way. Companies that do not implement a sound business model in a needed market will fail, period. Let it happen, get some new people in that can make it work. Everyone that is a legacy will take a paycut some will need to find other options, move on. The market is telling them they have failed, let them fail and “hopefully” new capital will come in and produce cars at a cost level that is sustainable without a massive overhang from past indulgence on all levels.

Our Canadian government has committed us to an auto industry bailout to the tune of 20% of any US amount. Thats double, per capita, that of any American plan.
Allowing greed and corruption to run rampant caused this mess. Deregulation pushed by the cowboy capitolists let the wolf into the hen house. Actually, They are the wolves!
Where does our fault lie? We bought into the lies that corporate America spun the “American Dream” into. I thought it was all about freedom and opportunity not greed and blind consumption! We drive our SUV past our neighbors local store to buy toys and toothpaste from Walmart. Then we turn a blind eye to the export of jobs and the import of inferior foreign goods that poison our children, polute our air and water and overwhelm our landfills. We let the petro-pushers create and feed our addiction while creating the biggest exodus of American capitol in history. The petroleum and auto industries have been in colaboration for decades. They’ve been instrumental in the selection of the last several American Presidents. They have quashed the development of alternative energy technologies. They are directly responsible for global warming and many of the worlds comflicts today! The petroleum and military industries hijacked American foreign policy years ago. As long as we stay consumption drunk on disposble foreign non essentials don’t expect much change!
BAILOUT! Its like throwing a bailbucket to a man drowning at sea!

Here is how dumb the UAW is. Sit back and really think about this. The NON-UNION shop workers in the sunbelt make $30/hr and the UAW workers currently make $29/hr. Then in 2010 the wage for a new UAW worker is going to be $15/hr. So they are going to make the new workers suffer with lower wages than you can make working for a NON-UNION shop just so they can have free benefits.

Now sit back and ask yourself this did I lose money in my 401(k)? If you have one you did down 40+%. Do I have to pay a portion of my monthly health care costs? If you work for anyone outside the union you do probably anywhere from $1500-$5000/yr minimum. Then add all your deductibles, pre-pays and co-insurance payments and you are paying even more than the above.

Now the UAW is asked to step up and provide more payments to take lower pension payments and make more health care contributions and they BALK and start blaming others? People wake up your 401(k) is decimated and you pay health care but we should bail these people out without concessions?

Hey Tom Holiday in Florida wake up.

military equipment in case of war? There will be no war, remember the world loves us because we elected Barack.

Are the foreign auto companies really
helping the communities as well as the big three did? Yes, and in 2010 they will be paying their employees more than double what the UAW will be paying their employees.

I kind of doubt it. If you doubt it time to do your research and get your head out of the sand.

We need to wake up and remember 9/11 and how the auto companies were there
for us then. How were they there for us by offering sub-prime auto loans so a bunch of people could buy cars they did not need or could afford? Can you not see they are part of the credit crisis and if you do not think so take a look at GM’s 10Q statements and check out the delinquency at GMAC and Ford Motor Credit. If Chrysler opened their books you would see they are truly the worst off.

Money should be given ONLY with concessions of wages, benefits, and a STRONG plan to put American auto companies on the same track as foreign auto makers. U.S. auto makers have a lot of catching up to do, and they MUST be MADE to do it. They must be made accountable. Otherwise, we can’t afford to give them $ because in the long run, it will mean even more taxpayer $ lost.

Realy hard to believe some of the comments. Are there that many people who work for themselfs.Do that many believe that the person who cleans their rest room at work does not deserve a living wage, that everyone else should work for min wage so they can have a lavish lifestyle. Autoworkers do not have the wages and benefits some of writers are describing, or the pensions or health care.
Be advised if GM goes bankrupt here it will move production offshore,then in 10 years all the foriegn plants will go back to home countries and there will be no autos built in US. So make sure you grand kids go to scchool,but if there is no industry left here where will they work?

Ignmorance is not bliss!!! It must be nice to be on the outside looking in!!!I want to know what hourly rate is your body worth. I want to know after loading 500 fenders per shift 5-6 days a week 8-9 hrs a day for 30 years, when your shoulder is replaced with plastic and your elbow is made of steel your back hurts constantly, What rate of pay should that uneducated overpaid UAW worker have been paid.

here is a novel idea–the legacy cost owed to the UAW runs into the tens of billions–lets give the uaw ownership of the company –no bailout–we all walk away and call it even–now the union can deal with itself and its failed workrule –job bank–over priced workers

Do these companies deserve a bailout? – ABSOLUTELY NOT. Let the best companies win in today’s environment & these “Big 3″ are far from the best & have a lot to learn in order to be competitive. Specializing in gas guzzling vehicles is a thing of the past. Although Toyota, Honda, Nissan & Hyundai are foreign companies, they have numerous factories in the US that hire Americans & product quality cars.
If the “Big 3″ go under, there will still be a huge need for more cars in the US which will force the quality car manufacturers to set up more factories in the US & create more jobs.
Historically, the UAW has had a lot of sins with fattened salaries & benefits as well as pay for upto 3 years for layed-off employess (how can these Big 3 companies be competitive?). They should go through a structured bancrupcy which will be a good learning for them & will allow them to restructure, BECOME LEAN & make some right decisions for a change!!!

The cake is in the oven. Time not to be diverted by the squirmishes.

The problem originated from the Government and the FED. Save your outrage for the right source.

The solution will be “global” which in the end means you will lose the ability influence with your votes.

Time to put serious effort into educating yourself. This is not magic — wishing things right doesn’t help.

Bailout..I love it! Here are companies that have been making a crappy product, while their workers have been overpaid, for years and have not turned a profit even when the economy was rocking. What’s wrong with people?? Now they have everyone by the “you know what” and demand a bailout because America can’t afford to lose jobs at companies that are poorly managed across the board and have been for decades. I am pissed off! It’s my money…tax-payers money that will go to save the behinds of some people that haven’t worked in years while hiding behind the curtain of the UAW. It’s a load of bull! American cars are no good, there are too many dealerships and they can’t compete with Toyota, Honda, Nissan for many obvious reasons. Even with bailout money, GM will certainly fold within months. The others may still exist in some form but the day of reckoning has come for these losers and it’s too bad we all have to pay for it.

Let’s see, greed, corruption, jag offs in suits who think they are worth over a million dollars and up, vehicles that are a day late and dollar short compared to the competiton, its all about the money, who cares about the product? Antiquated unions trying to wring the most money from the employer to “give” to the employees, which is kind of OK because the execs would take it anyway. I feel sorry for the workers – BUT – Let the Big 3 Die. This would be just the beginning of a turn around for America.

MOST AUTOMOBILE SALESMAN, AS I WAS FOR TEN YEARS ARE KNOWLEDGEABLE, HARD WORKING ENTREPRENEURS WHO TREAT THEIR CUSTOMERS FAIRLY AND WITH RESPECT.

WHEN A CUSTOMER’S CREDIT HAS PROBLEMS THEY ARE OFTEN GIVEN INTEREST RATES AND STEERED INTO VEHICLES THAT ARE BELOW COMPETENT STANDARDS. PERHAPS THEY SHOULD PAY A SLIGHTLY HIGHER INTEREST RATE, BUT NOT DOUBLE THAT OF A PRIME CUSTOMER BECAUSE THE CAR STARTS TO BREAKDOWN BECAUSE IT HAD PROBLEMS TO BEGIN WITH AND THEY END UP OWING MORE MONEY THAN ITS WORTH, AND STOP PAYING FOR IT. A RESPONSIBLE LENDER SHOULD MAKE LOANS AFFORDABLE AND AUTOMAKERS NEED TO DROP PRICES ACROSS THE BOARD 20-30%. THIS CAN BE DONE BECAUSE THE AVG DEALERSHIP HAS MUCH MORE OVERHEAD THAN IT NEEDS. MOST SALESPEOPLE CAN LEARN OR ALREADY KNOW THE PAPERWORK THAT NEEDS TO BE SIGNED. THERE ARE NUMEROUS AREAS CUTS NEED TO BE MADE.

When did Greed take over this country? What happened to American Pride? It is evident that our values over the past 40 years have deteriorated. A sad time indeed.

It is a sad state of affairs that the US Auto has sunk to the level of begging for loans from the Government.

I think we should support a recovery plan for both GM and Ford. Chrysler should go into Chapter 11. They sold themselves to MB which sold them to a private equity company. I see no reason why taxpayer $$ should be used to prolong their existence. They made a tragic management decision back in the 70s and 80s to be a US company only. Let them go.

It is unseemly that the Republican’s in the Senate are laying this issue at the feet of the Unions, this again is a utter failure of managment and the boards of these companies, they had the ability to change the companies direction and business model, but chose not to be competitive.

As a teenager and young man I was a US Auto bigot, I now own only foreign cars and don’t see buying a GM or Ford product for the foreseeable future.
S

Why are we scrutinizing a Loan to the automakers so heavily when we handed over billions of dollars to banks and insurance companies that were anything but fiscally responsible?
Yes, bad decisions were made by auto industry senior leadership by not looking forward but do punish the average American and destroy our economy? Seriously, this is even a debate?!
We handed the money to the financial institutions and have yet to see the return for Americans. If they really wanted to stimulate the economy and allow capitalism to remain clean than why did they not give the tax paying Americans a check to do what they need to do to survive? Mortgages would be payed/payed off, cars would have been payed off/purchased and credit card debt would have been reduced/payed off. A check of $300,000 per tax paying households could have brought this country out of its dark days quickly. Granted there would be governance on how this would be distributed.
I have yet to see our president do one thing to make this country better. Well here is his chance! Jump in Mr. President and do at least one thing that would look good on your resume.

Yes, Jim Ede and Nancy Qatsha believe in the Auto Bailout. We cannot believe how the Kentucky Senator is against the bailout when the largest Ford Truck Plant in North America is in Louisville, KY. The GM Corvette Plant is in Bowling Green, KY. and Kentucky employs 65,468 automotive jobs. Tennessee Senator has also voted against the bailout when Tennessee employees 79,424 automotive jobs with knowing the Saturn plant is there. Alabama Senator, who voted against the bailout as well, has automotive employees numbering 49,346 people. Cumulatively this adds up to 194,238 jobs just in these three States alone. The devastation this will play on our economy at this time after the financial crisis would put this Country into a depression which will increase crime and make this Nation look like a third world Nation. Doesn’t take a Genesis to figure the outcome of this; as for the Bank Bailout, why was money given to them without restrictions as to how the funds were to be used. The funds never made it to the people losing their homes which in turn is their tax money to begin with.

Our Government seems so corrupt that their putting this Nation at risk of people having nothing left to put a roof over their heads or feed their families. We are disappointed in our Government as well as the CEOs of companies that are stealing from the people and the people are the ones suffering and footing the bill always.

When is someone going to realize that we need to repair our economy with jobs, people with jobs pay taxes and in turn pay the deficit down? Doesn’t take an economic strategist to figure this out; when will common sense play a role in our government again? When will the government be for the people again and not for lining their pockets with our hard earned money.

Absolutely not!
Purchasing a car 25 years ago was a fairly nice process and now I cringe at the thought of putting one foot in a car lot. The games they play, hours of haggling, and never REALLY knowing if you paid a fair price. I walked onto a lot once with a Blue Book and Buyers Guide in hand and was treated like the plague.
Now the shoe is on the other foot and I think we should treat them like the plague.

Deserve a bailout? No
Congress needs to quit moving the line with each wave upon the shore. The question needs to be re-worked. It is not, “Do they deserve a bailout?”, but rather, “Should we reward failure?”. I’m waiting for Congress to require personal guarantees from the board of directors, management, and the rank and file employees of these companies to secure the repayment of the bailout funds, secured by the pledge of all pension benefits, stocks options, and deferred compensation the directors, managementm, and employees may be entitled to in the future. i seem to remember this is what the SBA and lender required of me many years ago for a $50,000 loan.

It just burns me that for many many decades the north paid Fed. taxes in which we received back less that 80% of the dollar where the south got back sometimes up to $2 per dollar because they had no industry. Now they have industry but are they willing to help out the northern Big 3 no. Yet everytime they have a hurricane we bail them out………..again and again. All we want is a LOAN.

The Big 3, that’s a joke. They won’t to build their vehicles as fast as they can and then recall them to get it right, as long as it’s still under warranty or forced by the government. Oh, they have such good warranties too, 36 months or 36000 miles. Some have raised their warranties thou to 36 months or 50000. Ok, they need to re-tool to put more vehicles on the dealers lots so they can sit there too. Until someone can get consumer confidence restored and incentives to purchase vehicles it doesn’t matter. Our so called electives will do what they want to. It doesn’t matter what the taxpayer would like to see happen. If it did they would let the taxpayers vote on it.

No way. the UAW’s need to get real, not a bail out!

US auto industry needs substantial changes in many areas to become competitive with foreign car makers. It should be done by fundamental changes not by bailout. Auto industry should file bankruptcy to start over again. Government should help to ease buyer’s mind that the Big 3 are filing bankruptcy to have a fresh start; not to disappear.

Union used to be good. Now they just plain greedy. We no longer need them. Information travels so rapidly nowadays. Slightly abuse will generate a big news event, why Unions are still here?! They just a middle man who suck up all the money.

I think White House should step in and give a “bridge loan” to the auto manufactures. I also think it was insanity for the Republicans to request a pay parity on a bill that was intended to be a short term stop gap. I also believe that if the White House does not take action, we will experience the real Great Depression and 1929 will be referred to as a steep recession.

Make the Oil companies bail out the automakers. They have recorded record profits!

American made cars get better scores than the Japan made cars?? Who says JD power L.O.L. I wonder what most of of the JD people drive?? Give me a break go and pull service tickets in any autoshop around the country for any givin year. You will not see the Japan made cars with window regulator, emmision, spring (Ford), headgasket(GM), sensors, rack and pinion leaks, trans cooler lines. I could go on but why the proff is the American people not buying mostly American becasue of not wanting to be hassled with a repair more frequently that you incounter with GM Ford and Chrysler. Plain and simple, build a better product. Case in point my wife has a brand new Ford 2008 and the cooler lines leaked and the radiator as well as the reverse sensor stopped working. My Acura integra with 250k on it sound as could be. Oh my Acura TL with 75k on it not a single problem, just had both in the shop for there shake down. JD power needs to list the cars they drive i bet they aren’t American. No Bailout I don’t care in my 401k goes the O. This has to stop so my kids won’t carry the debt of greedy business and our Government.

Auto Dealers are partially to blame for getting us in this credit mess.

“Sell the customer on payments”
“84 month loan on a DEPRECIATING ASSET”
“We’ll take care of your upside car loan by giving you an even more upside down car loan”

The car industry has been a prime suspect in the unscrupulous lending fiasco that has wrecked this great nation.
As I have always said, it is better to be able to purchase a Ferrari with cash than to drive a Porsche on credit.

STOP THESE BAILOUTS!

Capitalism is meant to be competitive and weed out the weaker identities. If government continues to bail out companies, then it ceases to be capitalism and becomes Communism. I guess all one can say is hello to Comrade Wagoner, Comrade Nardelli, and Comrade Mulally.

I want to see what really happens if we do not bail them out. Nevermind all the hypotheticals. In my opinion, they do not deserve the bailout. They should go under like any other business that has not made the right decisions. There can actually be some good taken from this. Maybe we’ll see cars that can go without gas or that can run for 50 miles on one gallon. I understand all the jobs that could be lost but obviously, nothing else worked so why not this?

ITS NOT A BAILOUT PEOPLE ITS A LOAN

The Big 3 for 2009 will be Honda, Nissan and Toyota.

they deserve the same as any business trying to get a loan. they need to submit a business plan showing they can make money. that business plan needs to include all “haircuts” required in order for the company to regain profitability. the money can be loaned as long as those conditions are met.

we are absolutely INSANE to give money to any company that can’t propose and enact a plan to return to profitability. if we start feeding a sick patient with no prospects to return to health, there is no incentive for the patient to change.

WE MUST HAVE A PLAN FOR THE PATIENT TO RETURN TO HEALTH BEFORE SPENDING TAXPAYER DOLLARS–THAT PLAN MUST INCLUDE ALL COMPONENTS MAKING THE PATIENT SICK. ANYTHING SHORT OF THAT IS JUST THROWING GOOD MONEY AFTER BAD.

From what happened in the final hours of negotiations we can see that Ron Gettelfinger, the UAW president, cannot make a deal that will give the bailout a chance of succeeding, of restoring the Big 3 to profitable operations. His actions and words remind me of the late Yasser Arafat negotiating for “peace” in the Middle East. He was incapable of reaching and carrying out a successful agreement.

So, for the change necessary to make the Big 3 viable, Mr. Gettelfinger will have to go. He holds fast to a union model of the 1950s in a twenty-first century world.

No. They should declare bankruptcy and restructure like other failed businesses.

They don’t deserve to be bailed out. It seems that they made the wrong business decisions. Other auto companies will take over the remains, what is useable. Next they will build new plants and hire new people to produce cars that people like, on the ruins that the big 3 will leave behind.

i work for an automotive supplier and i think that the detroit 3 do deserve a LOAN. its not a bailout its a loan. in my area there are alot of automotive related jobs including a jeep plant, many suppliers, not to mention all the restraunts and bars that depend on the autoworkers. if all this went away my area would be devistated, and so would the country. so many people out there dont relize how much this country depends on the AMERICAN auto industry. if the banks can get hundreds of billions of dollars in LOANS, then why cant we get a 15, 25,or 34 billion LOAN. oh, and bankruptcy is not option. nobody is going to buy a car from a bankrupt company.

I think thsese automakers don’t deserve anything, because they need money to pay there board of director bonuses and perks, I think all the board of director need to get fired immediately and replace with the board of directors from Toyota, Nissan & Hundyi.

RS

It’s not a bail-out, it’s not a loan, it’s a Ransom they (UAW) are asking.
If they agree to be competitive, means bring their cost and salary in-line (or even lower) with competitor, then It’s a bail-out. If they refuse to do that and kept saying, “Give us money or else we’ll bring down the ship (the economy).” then it’s a hostage taking, and they are simply asking for a Ransom like a pirate.
To be fair, the same way goes for the banking industry though. So, we did paid ransom to the banking pirate, but that doesn’t make it right to pay for another pirate, UAW.

At first I was angered at the UAW thinking that they were greedy and selfish. I felt that since the foreign auto employees bottomline pay/benefits are lower why are the UAW not budging? But then I read a small article that changed my mind. There is a bigger picture. By asking the UAW to lower the wages would be accepting unfair competition by the foriegn companies who pay their employees less. That the US government allowed the failure of the US auto industry by allowing foreign competition without any penalty. Foriegn companys are far more capeable than American businesses because they allow for cheap labor. Thats the whole problem with America today. Outsourceing is part of this issue. By allowing American companys to ship our jobs overseas so that they can cut costs and bring in cheaper products which inturn bankrupts American operations in US territory. US companys are haveing to compete with these foreign companys. What makes American products more expensive is they cant run “Sweat Shops” the way foreign companys do. Cheaper labor means cheaper products. Which ultimately leads to Amercia’s unemployment problems. While the UAW represents the American worker, the our Government represent foreign cheap labor, competition and the increased gap between the rich and the poor. If you ask me, the whole reason why we are in this mess is because of our government turned their backs on us and allowed this to happen.

Instead of rewarding successful businesses and individuals, we are rewarding mediocrity. The worst you are, more money you will receive from the government. What a way to teach kids how to succeed in life. No wander North America is doomed.

I’m not a fan of bailouts, the Wall Street bailout sickened me. What sickens me me even more is so little of the money we’ve given Wall street is ending up being used to bolster the economy. Rather we bolster those poor banks and put bonuses into the pockets of those who could not have earned them. I don’t get a bonus where I work unless we have a successful year.

The double standard is obvous, Washington was falling all over themselves begging us all to give failing banksmoney. They sky is falling, the sky is falling! We must bolster the banks! This has helped us how? So glad they’re all getting their bonuses. I’ll sleep easier knowing, won’t you?

As for Detroit? The don’t deserve loans, but the blue collar workers who drive whats left of the economy in the midwest do deserve a shot of surviving this recession. The people that will lose their incomes over the bankruptcy of GM are not stressed over losing their bonuses, they’re stressed over losing their jobs. Jobs that cannot be replaced, if you think things are bad now, wait until we lose 3 million tthrout the country as a chain reaction to the problems in the auto industry.

Washington would destroy what’s left of the economy, if it breaks the UAW?

This country is pitiful.

Per the

What about this. Give all driving tax paying American a voucher to purchase a car from one of the big three up to $50,000.this would add the money for the auto companies and give the American tax payer something in return.

The U.S. car companies are making cars nobody wants? GM alone sold 9.3 million vehicles last year, more than any other car company in the world. If we let them fail this will be a world economic calamity not just the U.S. Besides taking down the majority if the U.S. suppliers of the Foriegn car companies with plants in the U.S.
Think about what you are porposing when you say “let them fail”. It would be a catastrophe that could have been averted. All because of a few people whom WE elect putting their own political self interests in front of what is best for the country.
What are we doing?

Tim, I agree. 40 more days of a government subsidized and artificially propped-up Wall Street stock market is what the current Administration is trying to do.

They don’t deserve a bailout, but they certainly deserve a loan from the lender-of-last-resort. This is their last resort, and if they don’t get it right this time, it will likely be their last.

I would rather buy a Japanese or an European brand car, rather then an American made. It is simple, the Japanese and Euopean carss are nice, fuel efficient, relatively low cost, value for money. So, I don’t thing we should bail out the big 3 using tax payers money. If we bill them out, who will bill us out?

Amazing stuff in 400+ comments here. How we can just walk away from the largest mfg industry in the country is beyond me. Especially when we bailed out the banks with 40x the money we are talking about here….

The package the Senate threw out made sense with almost a forced/controlled way to get the companies to react or go under. Hopefully taking it from the TARP dollars will allow that as well. Both Obama and even Bush are smart enough to know that letting these fail would put us into a multi year recession … or worse.

We cannot let this industry fail. We cannot “bail” them out either. No one wants to give but if the unions gave something (20% wage/benefits cuts, immediate, including to retirees) with a plan to revisit it as the economy improves -and- white collar workers and management gave even more that would help. Oh yes and some of the execs do need to go, they have failed to see this coming and lack much vision or leadership as well. And then we need an immediate plan to redirect future products to much improved efficient vehicles, but that won’t help for a few years. I agree the quality is already vastly improved in my last 3 Chrysler vehicles in the decade compared to say the 80s. Oh yes they also need -credit- flowing for people to buy in 09 and some WARRANTY guarantees (a separate fund to cover the base warranty, similar to what states require for extended service contract warranties that are basically just insurance policies).

So work a plan to immediately CUT COSTS, then get credit and warranty guarantees. This is not a bailout but it does take 3-6 months for that to occur.

Dear America and AMERICANS: Do NOT spend a ‘dime’ on the Big 3 auto companies . . you should be making instead; detailed financial PLANS to bankroll your existing self employed farmers (NOT: The Agribusinesses). If this sounds dour . . this week it was announced that Russia is DOING JUST THAT! Oh Yes, things can get THAT-OUT-OF-HAND. . THAT QUICKLY!

No One is going to be buying or driving for ‘pleasure’ anymore; furthermore there is an overload of parked & stored brand new autos;anyway. Can U imagine less than a year from now (Spring of 2009) and the Big 3 are ‘GONE’ ANYWAY . . and your farmers THEN step forward for REAL financial help FOR FUEL AND SEED to feed ‘America’ and the POT IS EMPTY???? Or even WORSE . . the American Dollar (BY THEN) mortally WOUNDED and has banana-republic embedded all over it? All because of the Big 3 Money give-a-way not yielding a pennies-worth-of-progress?

Remember what a CONFEDERATE Dollar was worth in April of 1865? SO do NOT run your balance sheet down; NOT A DIME! By all means give the poor layed off auto & subsidiary workers a years’ pay and health benefits. .BUT NOT A DIME to the Corporate Bottom Line of the Big 3.

America’s new motto – When buried in debt, go deeper in debt. Everyone knows they don’t deserve this. The only reason for it is to prop-up Wall Street and the BIG BOARD for a little while longer. Fundamentally, nothing changes by giving them this money. The Wall Street Wizards know it, but they also know they can make a buck or two before the rest of the market understands.

Yes, OBVIOUSLY. We the people already subsidized transplant manufacturers. Our government has already given them Billions of tax payer dollars. This is a huge issue in a competative market.
& the UAW has already made tremendous concessions. The fact that most Americans don’t know that tells me that the reporting done by our media is not informative.

I have given enough infact i even invested in gm and f. Time to cut the ties. The business model doesnt work.

I respect all opinions that everyone here has concerning the industry, against and for alike. I totally agree that changes need made across the board, not just with the UAW, but lets not forget the shareholders and the bond holders and management as well. Lets all keep in mind 2 key points! #1, Free trade. If Korea can send 100,000 units here we should be able to send 100,000 there, no exceptions. #2, how can we defend ourselves in a time of war? who makes the weapons of war? Seems to me that a lot of people with negative opinions about the sector have spoken very little as to who built these weapons that this country needed to help liberate Europe in WWII, I worked in the sector from 1982-2005, decided to move and get into the oil business. I drive 2 vehicles built here in the states. My tax dollars go to many entities that if I knew all of them I would be shocked and very upset. Just seems very unfair to bailout the financial sector who knew they were making bad loans and then not want to extend a loan to help keep American workers working. I am all for helping the Auto sector provided all parties involved make concessions.

I am all in favor as long as the UAW is dissolved. Why should they be making more than a worker at Honda or Nissan or Toyota. They should be making at lot less. I work 70 hrs a week and make nowhere’s near as much as a militant UAW worker.

I do not think Detroit has anything left to bailout. They are running on fumes and have been more of a drain and strian on our economy for years. It is beyond jobs here, they are part of the reason we are in the mess we are in right now. The same goofy financing (no income, if you have a pulse you get a loan) that got the housing industry have gotten the big three in trouble also. Foreclosures and reposessions… why do you see so many nice cars on the streets? Is it because people are doing so well?

This industry has been on life support for years, let the patient die, it is never going to be healthy again. Pull the plug! We are not Socialists, the French are!

One thing that I see most people are not understnading is that there is a difference between the U.S. econimic infrastructure and the financial infrastructure. Though intertwined, they are not the same thing.

When I read through these comments I realize how uneducated and gullible people are in this country. Management determines the direction of a company and employees simply execute their plan. Put the blame where it belongs. Also, where is your anger about the bank execs asking for handouts and getting them without being dragged through the mud and humiliated in front of Congress? Hello, they are costing the taxpayers a hell of a lot more than the Big 3 and the UAW.

THE UNION MUST GIVE CONCESSIONS,THE SAME AS ALL THE REST OF US THEY ARE THE PROBLEM

Whay rubbish.The auto industry isn’t just the big 3.Toyata Honda BMW etc all will keep making competively priced quality cars.The UAW deserve to lose there workers for trying to hold the people of the USA to ransom via a government bailout.Geez imagine if they tried to kep telegraph companies from going under how good it would be for the economy.These old companies have had their time.

No bailout. They have had so many opportunities to make the economical, fuel efficient cars that the U.S. consumer needs. They should have to deal with the choices they made.

NO BAILOUTS!
Move forward with a structured bankruptcy!
That’s the only way to start fresh with a new direction and new labor contracts. A bailout will only prolong the situation and do nothing for the future of the industry.
Trim production and cut losses. Trim product line and follow the same course the asians laid out for us. They are successful and we’re not. They learned from us now it’s time to learn from them. (it was hard to admit that).
Fire all lead players who directed us into this mess and get qualified leadership with proven track records and keep them in check each quarter. This sounds too simple and it is.

HELP ME GET THIS MESSAGE OUT THERE FOR OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS:

We the People need a bailout!
Take all those billions of dollars and divide it among the TAXPAYERS!
Watch what will happen:
We will: buy a car (auto makers/dealers benefit), pay off our loans (banks benefit), start a business (create jobs), Buy a house (Real Estate Market benefits), Christmas shop (retailers benefit), buy a digital TV (Electronic Retailers Benefit), Pay off our past taxes and start fresh (government benefits), buy health insurance and pay off old medical bills (healthcare benefits), go on a vacation (Airlines, etc benefit), Invest in our future (Wallstreet benefits).
In otherwords; We get the chance to clean up our creditlines, and Free Enterprise reigns!

These business who want a bailout will start focusing on the consumers and not congress???
The strong and worthy will survive, and those who have fallen too far behind will not make it.

GM should not fail. GM represents the american dream. I got a job in assembly right out of high school, never went to college and now making 70 thousand a year not counting benefits. That may sound like a lot but I deserve every penny I earned.
Most people my age still live with their parents. I have my own house and its all paid for. My wages paid for the construction workers to build the house. Without me, those workers would not have had the 9 months of employment building my house. I dont think the politicians will allow the american dream die.
I think the bail out will happen anyways because if not, there will be a depression.

Absolutely NOT! Those companies need to emerge from this mess without unions and hard headed way overpaid executives that bring no value to those companies. Only then they will have a chance to competitive, otherwise its just throwing our tax money down the drain.

Yes. I think we can afford to give $14B to the auto’s with accountibility vs. the $686B to the banks that won’t pay it pack and have no accountibility

Bailout, Loan Money, Print Money: do what needs to be done for the short term. Long term – the demand side of this equation must be addressed or the present actions will have no value.

Each auto maker has a different set of problems. Ford built too many gas guzzlers. They are well on their way to changing that. Chrysler has changed ownerships and the Benz people were not making money and were afraid to make any changes that might make things worse. GM is the bad apple. They put out poor quility vehicles (check out the Comsumer Reports Auto issue each April). They evidently use low bid parts from suppliers. Take Pontiac cars—they all look alike with the same front-end design. It is more or less a design that has been around for 15 yrs. Why would I want to buy that when I could buy a Honda? I say help Ford and Chrysler but not GM.

We should not have bailed out the banks and we should not bail out the auto companies. It is now a world economy, and if US companies need to learn how to survive by failing then so be it. This is the land of free enterprise, not the land of get as big as you can so the government can’t let you fail no matter how stupid you are…..if people don’t want to suffer the consequencs that will be produced by banks and auto companies failing they should get the hell out of the United States. You don’t get to have your cake and eat it to…if you made money just by blindly sticking money into the stock market since the last recession, but you don’t want to risk losing your job than you don’t belong here. By the way, I am not for bailing out people that put themselves into mortgages that they couldn’t afford the risk with either.

And Bush needs to stay the hell out of the auto bail out, especially since he only has a few weeks left.

The UAW should be kicked off the industry. Big Three should file for bankruptcy and get rid off UAW. The president of UAW is not doing the job. He should be fired. Also, the faster they file for the bankruptcy, the faster the workers can be retrained and get a new job for better life.
Also one who needs a car will buy a car, either from Big Three or someone else. The impact to the economy will be mild.

When the Company is thrivig, the workers deserve more. When the Company is collapsing, it is legitimate to cut back their salary to “normal”. To make a compromise and as a concession of bailout, the Company should pay the cut back amount by issueing them Company stock warrants with purchase price set around the average of the Stock price in the past ten years.In that case and when the Company is up again, they deserve it. Otherwise, it means they don’t deserve that pay.

Yes, of course — the costs of not doing it would be too great. But we are talking loans only, and with the proviso that American auto makers place significant focus on energy efficient cars.

Let them work it out by themslves.The unions are unwilling to give anything up.The unions are a big part of the problem.The government should give them restucture guidlines and tell them take it or leave it,one offer. If not, let them fail.

The only reasonable long-term solution is to let GM and Chrysler go into Chapter 11. Ford may not need that and they are be applauded for keeping their house in order better than the other two. GM will introduce the new Camaro early next year — a nice car but the wrong car at the wrong time — another blunder I’m afraid. Ford seems to have a better grip on what is needed and on managing its finances. The new Mustang redo was relatively cheap to accomplish. Ford has good, potentially high volume product coming down the pike with the Fiesta and European version of the Focus. Chrysler is probably a lost cause — except for Jeep which should go to Ford if they can afford tp pick it up — Chrysler would not be missed it the market place except maybe by the Police who like those wasteful Dodge Hemi Chargers — best they not have them any way!).

Maybe this is payback for years of making cars that a teenager can steal in 2 minutes. Lets not forget about the Cadillac Escalade that comes from the factory with a security system. They are the most stolen cars in America.

Do they need to remain in business – YES
Do they DESERVE to be bailed out – HELL NO!
All parties with the exception of the UAW were giving back under the Democratic plan, when the Republicans asked for a commitment from the UAW, it fell apart. The UAW wants to give nothing important and probably wants a raise due to the stress they have endured. The companies can not be competitive in the future with the labor costs (wage plus benefits) that they currently have.
A structured bankruptcy would still be the best path forward and the financing could be provided by the government.
As a taxpayer, I don’t want to bail out the UAW.

Chapter11, Fire all US citizens and replace them with immigrants. Until
US citizens can learn to cram 15 people into a two bedroom home and sleep on foam rubber in the living room we just won’t be competitive in any industry.

Why is everyone so hard on the auto industries and somehow we can forgive the banks and the securities that are getting far more money and have done far more damage? We need the auto companies if for nothing else for added security measures for our country. Where would we manufacter war jeeps, tanks, and other necessary
military equipment in case of war?
Are the foreign auto companies really
helping the communities as well as the big three did? I kind of doubt it.
We need to wake up and remember 9/11 and how the auto companies were there
for us then.

Why is everyone trying to put the blame on the UAW? Did anybody forget last year when the UAW made concessions to GM and then rewarded their CEO with a $20,000,000 bonus? Why should the UAW take a 25% pay cut? Why don’t Congress take a 25% pay cut and layoff 10% of themselves and see if they can live off unemployment for a while.

Mike,

Take a break, you’re going to stroke out!

I unfortunately agree with some things that Mike says. We have too many gov’t agencies in place to protect workers, all that the Unions bring is added cost and hurt consumers and the growth of companies. There are kids getting out of College that don’t make half of the hourly wage Union workers get. Does un-skilled (high-school grads) labor deserve this reward at our exspense? Now they expect us to bail them out when the cost of the cars have gotten out of control; what magic hat trick is suppose to get us to buy their cars. That alone should be enough to tell us to let them file bankruptcy and abolish the unions. Ronald Reagen was able to dismantle the Unions for the Air Traffic controllers and the UAW is stating they are a part of natiaonl security as well so if we do file Chapter 11 and then they try to strike after that to get the contracts back then Obama should do the right thing and abolish them once and for all.

No More Bail Out – Use Chapter 11 and then the govt can guarantee the warranties and loans to the big three that would give me the confidence to buy their cars…it sure would be cheaper and force all envolved to play ball. Hello did we not just see what the UAW was about since they were the one’s that ruined the last deal because they refused to give a time table…oh lets keep blaming the GOP for everything right. This is how they operate, force the issue there way at all cost, right!

Chapter 11 for sure is the best thing.

Pete

It’s crazy that people are not willing to help the auto companies in this terrible recession. Let’s give billions to Wall Street and forget about Main Street? Don’t forget that Senator Shelby’s state gave huge tax breaks to foreign car makers so that they would come to his state. So he used taxpayer money for them. Now he wants to protect them and throw GM under the bus. How patriotic…Merry Christmas!

Last time I checked the U.S. was not a socialist society and nor did it want to be. Giving the automakers this bailout makes us just that.

Let the auto companies fail, this has been years even decades in the making, and we should not right their wrongs. The airline industry went through the same thing and they are still here today. The steel industry went through the same thing and they are still here today. People and companies do not get better when they are rewarded for negative actions. If we give them the money today we will be propping the auto industry up for years to come.

Letting them go bankrupt will hurt the U.S. economy but we will survive we will prevail we will come back stronger and more unified than ever.

NO. These companies do not create wealth; they destroy it by making cars that people do not want.

Bailout – ABSOLUTELY NOT! It’s difficult time for millions of Americans, why all of us should pay for thousands of UAW workers and managements who did not produced good cars for years. If you will look at car models on the street it’s more then 80% foreign models, but most of them made in USA. So American people can do quality job. And UAW and our Democrats trying to use scary propaganda of losing over 4 millions jobs and Chapter 11 will turn to company liquidations. Taking if Americans will buy cars from company who in bankruptcy – yes, they will if cars will cost less, money talks. If we give them chance to restructure under bankruptcy they will come out of this mess and became stronger and COMPETITIVE with foreign-american companies. It will happen unavoidably now or few months down the road, but it will cost more. I cast my vote – NO BAILOUT.

Can I get a bailout to get a car, house? No. So they shouldn’t have a bailout either. This bad business model needs a reworking.

I’ve been a clay modeler, designer, vendor and programmer and watched first hand how these companies got into this position.

Rather than train local talent bring in Chinese, Japanese and Latin Amer. nationals and allow them to have access to our most advanced concepts and technologies.

Concerning the unions I say away with them. This whole sceneario was called in Alvin Toeffler’s ” Future Shock” – wherein he stated that the unions would cease to exit as we knew them, but become specialized to specific fields.
So, I say NO! Swim or sink fish!

If your kids in college blow all their money on booze, drugs, and gambling, then call home for more money, do you give them more? Of course not. This country has been enabling poor business management (gambling), greed, excess, wildly inflated CEO pay, and poor automobile design for years. The party’s over–look at America’s checkbook. It’s time for the Brontosaurus auto industry to evolve, and with better management and engineering.

None of these industries deserve a bailout, but we have no choice. Greed has caused all of this and now we are paying
the price for that. The Empire is crumbleing and we did it to ourselves. Sweet dreams America.

GM & Chrysler need to file bankruptcy and re-organize. They should NOT be allowed a bailout from the taxpayers. For years they have had only Senior Executives interest in focus. Let them file bankruptcy, get all new senior level mgmt. and let the workers help own, direct and re-build the companies. Ford has started doing this a long time ago and are doing much better than GM & Chrysler. Ford has the right idea — they just need to keep going with it. Look at the poor designed cars from GM like the Escalade! Horrible styling, gas guzzling and expensive all in one!

This is not the 80’s people, GM makes good cars that people buy. GM is the #1 company in America and was #1 in the world until we entered a recession. We seem to be the only nation that doesn’t think we need to have something to offer in this global economy. Other countries support their industries, but we kick ours in the name of capitalism. Well guess what… hardly anyone else we trade with feels the same way.

STOP CALLING IT A BAILOUT—IT’S A LOAN!!!!!

It’s time America. It’s time to tell organized labor to shove it. Let the Big 3 die & the UAW along with it. Enough is enough!

If they adjust there business as they say & Union cooperates with mgt, I think they deserve a loan after all were giving loan to sorry ins. co. AIG

Let them go under and we can buy better built Japanese cars. My Chevy pickup was built in Canada!!! Who did that help here when it was built???

Granted the American auto industry is the pits .Top heavy management, overpaid executives ,high labor rates .
But they are competing against subsidized companies .
We have subsidized our poorly run Banking industry .
I like the idea of taking some of that
money & giving it to the big 3 .
& telling all of the parties concerned to get it right .
We have too many FAT CATS without a clue running this country into the ground in .
The best & the brightest have forgotten what real work & sound judgment is .
The goose that laid the golden eggs is on life support dont pull the plug just yet .
Vern

It took $4/gallon gas for many people to finally realize they don’t need a big SUV to go to the grocery store.

Maybe it will take $14 billion for people to realize we don’t need the UAW.

Loans or bankruptcy could both work if they address the root cause.

I am not a big fan of the bail out.
But maybe there is a better way to do this.
How about limited tax deductions for buying American cars? Deducting or crediting up to $10K per American made vehicle over the next 5 years (non transferrable). These deductions will only be passed if the UAW takes the right concessions, and the other things that were in the bail out agreement remain.
You could do this over the next two or three years to bleed the inventory. It would not be much different than a public works program and we would actually get something for our tax dollars!!! It would spread the cost of the stupid program over the next five to eight years, and for the people who can’t live with a car for more than two years would give incentive to buy another. But they would eat much of the cost of the first one because no one would buy the older one as they could get new for the same price. The people that can afford to eat it, would!

I grew up in Michigan in the 60’s and 70’s and recall vividly the militant nature of the UAW. They took absolutely no responsibility for the long term health of the industry. In stead they resembled a parasite content to sucking the life out of its host. Now that they have indeed succeeded in killing the host, they expect the rest of us to subsidize them and keep the host alive for them. The industry needs to be forced into chapter 11 to kill the parasites once and for all, otherwise, you will never have a viable industry emerge.

No to giving or loaning treasury funds to the big 3. No to rewarding mismanagement and the greedy UAW. Will the economy take a hit with the additional laid off workers? Yes, but lets do it now, and get it behind us. There’s a process that the big 3 can use just like any other business. It’s called bankrupcy. The free market system gives you a chance to make a profit. But it also gives you the opportunity to take a loss. The taxpayers should not be shielding this business from failure and the loss associated with it.

Senator Crapo,

I’m Frank warren from Michigan, and as a fellow American, a Blue Collar Unionized Worker who voted straight Republican in the last 3 Presidential elections as a Reagan Democrats, because I will not accept abortion, nor the same sex agenda life style.

I take exception to what you and your fellow Republicans are saying and doing with your titles and authority. My gosh, Senator, it doesn’t take a very deep thinker, to see and size up the motives of your party leveling your political guns at me, a Unionized worker. I can understand the politics of it all, but, now at this critical time in history. I know I won’t change your mind, but, hopefully, I will influence your vision to look further than your own parties plotted agenda.

Yes, I’ am a Unionized Worker who earns a living wage, which allows me to live a middle class life. Unlike the millions of workers, your party and corporate America left behind.

Yes, I’ am a Unionized Worker who enjoys health care that has saved my life after 2 heart attacks and 9 angioplasties, that enable me to rise up out of my sick bed and run 26.2 mile marathon.

Yes, I’ am a Unionized worker, who had it not been for the sacrifices of others walking picket lines before my time, that paved the way, so that my wife of 25yrs, a 5 year melanoma survivor could receive treatment, and as recently as of this week had her Breast removed for cancer, and who happens to be sleeping beside me now at this 5:00am moment of time.

Yes, Senator, I’ am that Unionized middleclass worker, who has the privilege to here the Dr. say she going to live, her chances just increased to 90%.

I’ am that Unionized Worker who loves God, and is certainly thankful for an advocate, the UAW, that allows me to live a middleclass life, and not worry about the multi-million dollar bill we both racked up, and never would have been able to pay.

I’ am also the Unionized Worker who has agreed to give back benefits, that equal your entire life time to negotiate, and sacrificed more than you’ll ever know or willing to investigate before placing demands on my UAW President to give in…

Senator, will you, and the Republican Party, along with Greedy Corporate America not be satisfied, until all of the Middle Class American Workers earn 2 clicks above the poverty line?

The Have’s and the Have Not’s, is that the GOP plan for America? Please answer the nation wide re-mortgage your life question all of America is asking. How in the world did 750-billion slip passed you and your fellow GOP’s without a peep of accountability. How long have the GOP been subsidizing my competition, with how much peep money?

God Bless President Bush and his Team, who see’s your motives, and is willing to place his fellow Americans above the UNAMERICAN HIDDEN AGENDAS of a minority of Republicans who have the taste of revenge, and see an opportunity to destroy a Advocate Voice, namely the UAW, for American Workers.

But, what really disturbs this UAW Unionized Middle Class Worker is your willingness, along with your GOP conspirators, to allow this country to plunge into a tsunami recession that you and I know will devastate the economy, destroy lives, and stomp out the fire of hope for literally millions of Americans. All because of your parties thirst for pay back the UAW time.

Yes, Senator Crapo, I’ am that Unionized UAW Blue Collar Worker, that’s saying to you, and the GOP’s parties selfish hidden agenda has been revealed before the American People, and all these Reagan Unionized Blue Collar Workers here in Michigan. Your party can kiss these votes bye bye, including mine.

Ain’t Gonna Work

Frank Warren
Unionized and Middle Class.

The UAW stance – We are not willing to accept a reasonable offer of working for the same wages as Toyota and Honda’s U.S. workers. Reminds me of a large accounting firm I worked for that went out of business as a result of their not understanding reality either. No matter if their is a gift/loan from Washington the fact that it cost so much more to make a car in Detroit than with non UAW workers spells the end for Detroit – maybe 1 year, 2 years, or 5 at the outside….The bottom line – if a company is too big to fail, then it is simply too big to exist and that is what Chapter 11 or even 7 would resolve.

The government should not give a penny to those companies. Their plans all hinge around the economy improving and don’t address improving the companies (except for Ford maybe). I owned 2 GM cars and would easily by a car from a bankrupt automaker. The issue hinges around price and quality of the car, and not really the financial quality of the company. The auto companies don’t even understand their consumers which is the problem. They also have not clue how to run a company

Mike,

Sir, relax before you stroke out!

There are some comments in here that I have to agree with. Unions, UAW have become way too powerful in all of this and why should we continue to help to carry them if they can’t give us cars we want to buy. They keep on wanting to blame the big wigs, but they are the ones that put them together as well right and how many issues have we all had with what comes off the assembly line? I’d like to see my tax dollars better spent, no more bail outs.

Gov’t is getting way too involved in this and its going to make things worse. How can you think that people with Law degress and Poli. Science degrees can run U.S. businesses? They actually have no business doing this and there is a term they should abide by – laissez faire.

Okay give them the money and I do want to know what do we get in return for our tax dollars. That’s right, a company we don’t want to buy cars from but we’ll save them.

No bail outs, they need to file chapter 11 and move on.

Z

There are many causes to the problems facing America’s automotive industry. The most significant being Congress and the White House and their unrelienting greed at the expense of the people. Their pay and penions should be cut and their health care should be the same as the people they serve. Past Congresses should have done more to safe guard our America way of life and the hell with global economic. What happen to the spirit of Built in the USA? There are countries who use our country as a dumping ground for toxic waste toys and Congress won’t stop it.

Sure they deserve bail out ,but so do i . Lets clean off all debt people owe on credit cards an morgages an secound morgages. Then give every one million dallors who paid in to social security. That away we can all go out buy new chevy volt an save planet from certian disaster from cardon diaxde emmisions

NO – not with the tax payers $$$. Let the UAW bail them out!

Do not interfere with free market forces. The strong shall survive. I drive a Cadillac. Invalid warranty? Note: lesson learned.

Let the free market take its toll. The strong will survive.

We have to ask ourselves, how did they get there? I am not an economist, CEO or financial wizard, but do recognize stupidity when I see it.

a) Incompetent overpaid upper management.
b) Unreasonable Union representative.
C) Overcompensated autoworkers in regards of mundane task versus specialized field within the car making industry.

I will never and mean it never buy American cars again, I will not be ridicule by paying an overprice vehicle because mostly everyone in the BIG 3 (what a joke), including employees/Union are not willing to make concessions.

Lastly, the sad part is that we have to Bail them out or it might be the worst recession in history of the United States. Let it be a lesson for everyone.

Bernanke slowing down the buoyant economy; caused this mess … so let the government come to their rescue. The senate should have helped and The White House sure should. Amazing to see the southern states vote against it in the senate; with the Japanese manufacturers based in those states. Talk about traitors to American industry.

I hope they save GM, given certain conditions. Chrysler is private and has an owner with deep pockets, who won’t invest. Jim Press said they won’t invest because its “irresponsible”. So why should we the taxpayer? They need to merge and become smaller

GM, Chrysler and Ford should receive bailout to survive. The reason is not to save them, but to save America. It is inevitable, otherwise it will be economic turmoil not only for US, but for the whole world. EU countries also help their automakers, I pray for your own administration to do the same reasonable thing.

The American auto industry must be saved. The ripple effect of loosing them is something that this country cannot afford. Something needs to be done about the banks that took their hand out, and did nothing to follow through with the purpose of their bailout. They are the reason for this entire mess. It is not only the American auto makers in trouble. People are out of work, afraid to make purchases, or cannot get credit to make purchases. People need to wake up and see the reality of this mess. Instead, they continue to blame the UAW. Why not just blame the UAW for the demise of KB Toys too!!!

Several issues to consider.

First, if consumers had the ability to finance vehicles, the issues that face the industry now would likely not exist. Right now, the industry will be down over 3 million vehicles this year. One has to remember that the domestic makers sell 1 out of every 2 vehicles sold in the U.S. That is a lot of vehicles. There are consumers that wish to buy vehicles of all makes but can’t get a loan. This is true for all vehicles – import and domestic. This issue was not caused by the Big 3. It was caused by the same government that is now trying to fix the problem. Let’s see, the guys that got us in this situation are the same guys we are trusting to get us out of it. Does that make sense?

Second, the domestic makers have made great strides in past years to cahnge labor contracts, close plants, etc. The management of these companies
- Ford and GM – is the same managemnt that runs successful subsidiaries in foreign countries. In other words, they do know how to make a profit. They didn’t get stupid in the past 2 years.

Third, companies make what people want to buy. The only reason they made pickups and sport utility vehicles was guess what? That’s what the public wanted. If they didn’t sell them, they would not have made them. It is very simple – if the market demands it, the smart comapnies try to supply it. It doesn’t make sense to try and bend the consumers to your will or what you think they should buy. Also, the recent gas issue affected everyone in the industry. This is the reason that Toyota shut down the new plant in Texas that it just opened last year for several months – no demand for pickups. Why did they build a new plant for large pickups? If they are the standard to follow, why were their sales down -33% in November? Why were Honda’s down -30%? Why were Nissan’s
down -44%? By the way, guess what the
best performing vehicles were last month versus a year ago? Cars right? No, trucks.

Fourth, is the playing field between imports and domestic manufacutruer level regarding importing and exporting. No. Both Asian and european companies don’t have to provide health care for their workers in their home markets – they have government provided health care. This is a huge cost savings. Also, Japan is well known to maniupalte their currency to allow cheaper imports to the U.S. For one, I have never been able to understand why a imported cars cost less in the U.S. than they do in the country where they are produced. Many electronics, etc. are priced less here than the the countries in which they are produced. However, you buy a Cadillac in Germany and you will pay significantly more the the cost in the U.S. which makes sense. But foreign companies don’t seem to follow this logic.

Finally, what caused the higher labor cost structure for the domestic companies. Let’s see, they likely paid their workers too much. They also provided them pensions (remember those?). They also provided their workers health care. Now what did this do for our country over the past 50 years? It allowed many workers to join the middle class. It allowed workers to buy homes. It allowed workers to send their children to college. All of this was done without governemnt aid. Most people would think this is how a company should treat it workers. Most people would like to work for companies that provided these benefits. Now, these companies need assistance. They never got it in the past save for the Chrysler loan in the 70’s. We gave Citi bank $25B and they laid off 54k employees. Bank of America got $15B and just laid off 34K. I don’t think the government committees ever asked these companies to lower thier executives pay to $1, ask for their CEOs to be replaced, asked them to get rid of their corporate jets, asked them to cut their worker’s pay – why the difference in treatment other than the fact that the cameras were present for the hearings for the auto companies? Looks like grandstanding to me.

As an employee of an imported car company, I fully support the loans to these companies as I know what the devasation to the economy would be if they went into bankruptcy. Guess what? No one will buy a car from a bankrupt car company. Some of teh senators think so as they liken it to the airline industry. However, what was a person’s risk with an airline ticket – $500? A car typically is the second largest purchase a person makes. People might risk $500, they won’t risk $20,000.

Also, my company would be negatively affected due to the impact on our mutual suppliers. However, I am most sickened that our elected officials are so beholding to local imported companies – mine included – that they are willing to sacrifice the country as a whole for potential benefits to their own state. Aren’t they supposed to do what is best for the country? Isn’t this what they are elected for? Some asked for the current management of these companies to step down. Since our elected officials helped create this entire credit crisis which has, to a large part caused the auto industry issue as well as the banking issue, shouldn’t they be the ones to step down?

Why should a nurse in Alabama who makes much less than an autoworker in Michigan pay for their pension and healthcare cost? When you get laid off can you go down to the union hall and read the paper and get 90% of your pay?

In 1999 GM and Toyota had almost equal amounts of cash. Toyota invested theirs into R&D for the Prius, recently introduced to the market. GM purchased the Hummer brand. Do anyone see any difference here?
Let’s see if I have this correct? Waste billions, get rewarded. Make wise business decisions, get slammed. I must be missing something. Oh yeah, propaganda that anything with a GM label on it is equivalent to the Holy Grail. Metal has no idea how it is going to be used.

I am not happy with the bailout but, I believe it is a necessary evil.

However, I don’t usually side with southern Republicans and regardless of reasons in this case they are right. Bondholders, shareholders, UAW, and the companies and their managements need to beholdant to the taxpayer and all give a lot more to the point it hurts. It will hurt more when the whole UAW is unemployed. The UAW can help it members by cutting dues by 80% and UAW leadership wages.

If they cut and the companies agree to keep more of the jobs in the US then in the long run the UAW will be better off. The UAW did not serve their members by fighting this.

In addition, the UAW should be required to by stocks in the auto companies and be paid in shares. This way they would have a real stake in profitability.

Democrats stop supporting the Unions blindly and Republicans don’t blindly push the US automakers to bankruptcy. Neither is smart or common sense.

This is not about the Detroit 3 not restructuring they have been at it for the last 5 years , They did not Inflate Oil Futures which Drove the Price up nor did they mandate Subprime Loans, This is about the Fiscal irresponsability of the Wall Street Gang , and the Pork Slinging Politicians , if the economy was not in the Toilet we at GM would not be asking for a Bridge Loan. We are all Reeling from this mess, the finger pointing at the Detroit 3 about not building Fuel Efficient cars is a Joke Everybody wanted a SUV , No one bought cars. would you build green shirts if the market wanted blue? to change for market demand does not happen over night suppliers have to ramp up train new Team Members,Materials have to be Requisitioned, Logistics for Delivery,Assembly Line Speed increase Operation Rebalance Team Members Requisitioned, and Trained. and so on, Bottom Line we were well on our way to getting these Legacy cost off our books and on our way to greener vehicles . We are in the same Fox Hole as every one else Dodging Bulletts.

No. Definitely not !!! These companies took just about everything in life for granted. The phrase ‘consumer is king’ is something they thought was for the others. It is about time they learnt a lesson. For years they have produced gas guzzling unsafe cars and now they need to pay for their arrogance.

In the discussions on this topic we repeatedly hear tha auto workers blamed as the root cause because the are overpaid. Why didn’t we hear the same characterization of the FINANCIAL WORKERS making millions in bonuses and comissions for selling fraudulent CDOs and other mortgage backed securities at the failed banks, brokerage houses and insurance companies. Despite the lack of reform of exexutive pay these institutions got hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars, yet we cannot extend loans to the auto companies. I am ashamed to be a Republican.

NO….NO….NO….!

Get rid of the lazy, overpriced executives and auto-worker.

The unions must stop forcing the auto companies to pay laid-off auto workers. I know of a former Ford worker who bragged not working and paid 95% of his salary in a buy-out (that was 10 years ago). This is the kind of crap the auto companies are paying.

Who would’nt want to stop working in their 40’s and collect 95% of pay?

It seems bankruptcy is the only way to end the nonsence.

I doubt if 14 billion would help rescue the
US Car-Industry.These companies are bleeding billions of Dollars each month and are already in default,by not paying their suppliers.They also have sold US $70 billion
in Bonds into the market,and those Bonds are in turn covered by Credit Default Swaps (CDF)bought by counterparties who bet on the 3 car makers going bust.We really should look into the murky market of Credit Default Swaps.This is the next bubble to go bust
imn my opinion.AIG was brought to its knees by CDF’s- as was Lehmann.

This is not just an american problem and it shows,how all world markets are closely linked.I think the 3Carmakers need some help
to be able to pay their workforce and suppliers until the new Administration gets
to decide.

But those Car Companies in strife need to be
restructured,to enable them to get profitable.

The old management should lose their Jobs,
because they completely and utterly failed.
New Leadership has to come in with new answers for a product that americans want.

But this Car manufacturing issue is really
a world wide concern.

The real problem is our financial system,
Oil speculators,speculators who bet on Companies failing,rampant short selling
and rumour mongering which destroyed peoples confidence in our so-called “free market”.

The USA is still our World Market Leader
and when the USA sneezes,the rest of the world is still catching a cold,or in this case maybe pneumomia.

The main problem is jobs and consumer confidence which is at all time low!

We got to fix this and sooner or later
we will.

From what planet are these car dealers? Civic-minded? Church goers who treat customers gently? Most car dealers lie, deceive and rip-off consumers while smiling in their faces and have been doing so for decades. what goes around comes around. It is about time they get punished for their crimes of stealing and having a license to do it.

Not until all the present CEOs are replaced, and the auto workers agree to a 30% pay cut and reduced insurance packages.

Bail them out. After them- the airlines…then the rental car companies…then the boat companies…oh yeah- don’t forget about bicycle companies too.

GM…”Government Motors”…has a nice ring to it huh?

Absolutely not. They do not deserve a bailout. I am pretty sure that most people take out loans to purchase the Tahoes, Suburbans, and Corvettes. They profit from these loans and profit from the vehicles. Look at how many Chevrolets are on the road today. Do you see any foreign cars in trouble? No. I do not believe that our tax dollars that we work so hard for should go to help automakers. I feel sorry for the workers for losing their jobs, but more jobs are out there, eventhough they are hard to find. We all will survive. We are the United States of America.

How much will this cost, and will it only delay the inevitable?

It would be better to spend this money on DIP financing to guarantee warranties and operations in bankruptcy, while spending on real training for displaced workers (rather than the worthless Job bank program).

Yes, the Japanese and European car companies pay less in benefits because of state run health care. So what? They run fatories here that do not offer these levels of benefits. Millions of Americans get by with less money and benefits and job security than the UAW workers.

The UAW needs to go. The stubborn management at the Big 3 needs to go. The boards of directors need to go. Management from the outside needs to come in the turn things around: no insiders.

My company makes industrial machinery. We have no unions and we have been in bankruptcy several times (including once during the misery index). We were always able to sell and support our equipment. Companies like GM and Ford will too.

Throwing money at this will not fix the fundamentals.

i say no get rid of the union

There is plenty of shame to go around.
Corporate greed is sickening. Jealousy is ugly.
Both are destroying a country that was once a shining beacon of hope to the entire world.
It’s so hard to listen how one man in the financial industry can rip off 50 billion dollars (even as the SEC watches)! That is only the latest example of how illegal actions in THAT industry have led to the downfall of our economy. THAT industry was given (with no strings attached, no public flogging or oversight) HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of dollars in money that isn’t even required to be paid back!
So how can it be that some of the oldest and biggest companies in America are having such a hard time getting a LOAN for what amounts to only a small fraction of that?! (14B / 750B = less than 2 %!)

The “Big 3″ hasn’t committed any crimes. Maybe they aren’t the best automobile manufacturers in the world anymore and they have company jets. But that’s not a crime!
Actually, at this point in time Ford Motor Company is in a virtual tie for first in the latest initial quality and safety reports! We beat ALL of the European car makers and tied with Toyota!

For over 100 years the “Big 3″ has paid Americans a very good wage with very good benefits. For that they are now being criticized, berated and demonized by their countrymen. I say, God bless the “Big 3″ for making the middle class thrive during my lifetime! They contributed greatly to the power and prestige of my nation.

The fact is, the auto industry and their employees have long supported charities and enumerable other businesses. For all these years they have spent their hard earned money in their hometowns and across America.
Don’t believe for a minute that a dirty, dangerous and noisy factory is an easy place to work for 8 to 12 hours a day.
I personally believe that the long fall of the UAW membership (lowest levels since WWII) have contributed greatly to the slow economy. In 2006 alone we cut our numbers by 67,000 members. We ARE restructuring and have been at a very painful rate for years!

Our federal government makes lopsided “Free trade agreements” that hurt us. Our state governments give 100’s of millions of dollars in tax abatements to foreign automakers to locate in their state.
Our “high” wages pay the government “high” income taxes. The loss of all our jobs must be a staggering blow to the federal budget!

Don’t believe for a minute that as a skilled tradesman I make $75 an hour. That number is arrived at by figuring in the “legacy costs” of 100 years worth of retirees who receive a pension and health care. (This by the way was slashed in 2006 to save costs.)
The “big three” and UAW feel that it would be unfair to suddenly cut off ALL benefits to the retirees to save ourselves now. We still have some integrity. We have made concessions on the last two contracts.

It’s too bad that corporate greed in the financial industry and jealousy from our fellow countrymen is now causing us to have to hear all the hateful things that have been said here lately. We are loyal Americans and an important part of YOUR national economy.
The UAW has fought and won battles to increase workers rights, safety issues and wages for decades. These benefits have become standards that have benefited all workers in the USA.
It’s suicidal for my fellow countrymen to let us be destroyed. Everyone including the government will lose if we cease to exist.
Heck, even the daytime soap operas are in trouble because automobile ads have been cut! If you think the demise of the “Big 3″ won’t hurt YOU, you better think again!

You’re damn right they deserve a loan ( No bailout ) I’m a union member ( Mailhandlers) I had zero say so in the enormous bailout of the banks , the same damn banks that charge me 20+% interest if i’m late on a payment. Not helping the auto industry would be suicide to the middle class..But to hell with them ….Right

The U.A.W. has no accountability to there jobs or the product they produce.
Build a “lemon”?? Who cares, there is always another car coming down the assembly line!!Dump the union and you dump (solve) the problem

no bailout[ they made there bed,and now they have to sleep in it]

Personally I don’t give a damn what they do about the big 3, my house is paid for, I don’t have any debt except for my new 2009 Pontiac G6 which by the way is a great car. Since 1967 I have owned 40 or 50 GM cars (2 car family) and not one has been a bad car. If the people of the US want to see conditions that will make 1929 look like a cakewalk then just forget any help for the big 3. Remember that every Honda, Toyota and Nissan plant in the US has been paid for by the US taxpayers; don’t believe me check it out yourself.

It’s shameful that not one person (hello GM) has brought up the SIGNIFICANT improvements this industry has made in the past 10-15 years. It’s truly remarkable and no one is paying attention to that. “Big Three” car owners love their cars as much as the transplant buyers do. I challenge anyone who is complaining about the car industry of 20 years ago, to take a drive in one of the new products. I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised; and it would be nice to have everyone living in the 21st century as well, not still complaining about a car from 30 years ago.

This shouldn’t even be a discussion with the amount of jobs throughout the country that are at stake. 3 million plus their day care providers, retail shops, restaurants, schools, municipalities. When some of us go down, we all eventually go down. We need to hang together and support each other through the tough times if we want this country to pull out of this.

BTW, how fair is it to the taxpayers that Congress gave $350 billion to the banks within days—no questions asked, no expectations discussed, but the banks are still allowed to charge these same taxpayers outrageous interest rates? It’s appalling that U.S. Representative Carolyn Maloney’s Credit Card holders’ Bill of Rights legislation, H.R. 5244, languishes in the Senate while the US taxpayer gets thrown to the curb but AIG execs get “retention packages”, read bonuses, and they send out Tiffany champagne flutes with a bottle of champage to their clients as Christmas gifts. AIG either needs to get with the program, and now, or Treasury needs to get our money back.

Congress hasn’t even demanded the same “viable business plan” from Treasury for oversight and implementation of the $700 Billion financial “stabilization” plan that they are demanding of the auto industry. Let’s remember that the auto industry (read 15 million families) were asking for 5% of that in short-term loans. Not a blank check with no repayment terms attached.

The disrespect shown these Fortune 100 company execs was simply embarrassing. That’s what happens when the bank guys all hang together, that’s the only side they hear. It’s call Groupthink and it’s already wounded us via Bush, Cheney, et al.

I am so disappointed in my country’s leadership, I can’t see straight.

Dear Congress, you represent the American taxpayer and their families. No one else.

I truly hope Pres. Bush puts his cowboy suit back on and steps up to the plate on this one. 1) he needs to strongly recommend the banks get off the money we’ve given them and that they are sitting on, and 2) he needs to provide the money to the auto industry so that they can ride out this huge bump in the road. A bump put in place by the financial sector suddenly freezing credit. Dealers are forced to turn away sales because the buyer can’t get financed.

What about the part suppliers, are we gona get a bailout? Every year we help give the Detroit 3 mini bailouts by giving back 6-8% price reduction in our piece price…every year.

Does the UAW give this back? Do you see a reduction in the sticker price every year?

Responders, this is not about the UAW. It is about the automakers not maintaining and reasonable of internal engineering expertise as well as Senior managment not having only clue of where the market was going. I can understand not having the production capacity but the designs should be fully developed for all possible market choices.
Having said this I’m in favor of the bailout because fo the totl lack of anykind of energy policy in this country for over 100 years. As gas is not droping we should have taxes ready tp be placed on gas. I think old Ross P. suggested this in 1992 while runnign as an independent.

What a joke! We all know bailing out the automakers is just another big business hustle to get our money and then it will be business as usual and we won’t get anything out of it, ever! (except a huge bill that our great grand children will be paying off! Anyone that votes for a bailout just doesn’t know the average American, no one is listening to the polls and we may not be able to stop it, but we will make our feelings known by not buying cars from these 2 automakers (kind of like no one listened to us the last 8 years but we were heard in the last election)! Just wait and see if any of us do business with AIG! Thank goodness Ford has stayed American, if they don’t take our money, I’ll be buying a Ford!
Look at Harley Davidson (American owned company), they did not ask for a hand-out from us nor file bankruptcy, they reorganized a couple of years ago and now have two labor rates: one for the old-timers and a lesser scale of pay for new hires.
Oh, and by the way, shouldn’t the decision makers who figure out if and how much the automakers get have to abstain from voting or participating in any way if they own any stock from the automakers (or have a vested interest in the auto industry)?
Also, If the unions ever get past “you have to make us all rich,forever”, great, after they conclude the talks and hammer out a firm signed deal, then it MAY mean something!

Politicians are just not in touch with us, they just don’t know the American people or just don’t care.! WE DON’T WANT TO BAIL OUT ANYBODY, WE WANT ALL THIS MONEY TO GO TO SOCIAL SECURITY, JOB CREATION, EDUCATION, HEALTHCARE (Medicare, etc.) AND OTHER THINGS FOR US AVERAGE FOLK AND NOT FOR RICH PEOPLE AND FAILED BUSINESSES!!!!

This goes for states, cities and anyone else (after all the state and local government (apparent) waste, fraud, and abuse, they have the nerve and audacity to ask the taxpayers for money – why not trim the fat and see how that works! (or file bankruptcy and let someone run it who knows how).

Btw, regarding execs working for $1 dollar, what about the all the other golden handcuffs and parachutes which amount to tens of millions, are they going to give all that up also??

Speaking of Social Security and Medicare, before the stock market tanked and the criminal bailouts started, there was concern that these two most important programs are in jeopardy and may run out of money after people have paid into them all their lives, why have they not been mentioned or apparently not even considered with all the bailout discussions – what now is the future for these two vital programs??? Who will bail out Social Security and Medicare?

Now the auto makers want us to pay for all their past bad decisions and cushy lifestyle and more of the same in the future, what has really changed? NOTHING!

Giving (sorry-loaning) money to auto makers creates a protected species of Americans – United States guaranteed jobs! And cushy wages, buyouts, healthcare, retirement funds that the rest of us do not get! THIS IS WRONG ! Not equality!
Everyone in America should have this status, not just auto workers, they are not more important than the rest of us!

Auto makers need to drastically change their business model, else we are just throwing good money after bad!!

The auto makers need to fix it on their own like the rest of us, slim down, cut costs, wages, expenses, etc.

All the auto industries sob stories do not change a thing, They have been squandering and now want us to pick up the tab!

Now when you see an auto advertisement on TV, how will it make you feel to know they are using your money to pay for an ad to sell you a car?

The auto execs don’t want bankruptcy, then they would lose their playpen and have to do business like the rest of us!

The republicans didn’t care about us so we spoke and voted the Democrats in, but we are watching to see if they care about us, remember, there will be another election.

Kicking out the auto execs won’t fix the busted business model, only bankruptcy will change the business habits just like us consumers.

All this (non-sense) rush to pass the original $700B bailout and now the auto bailout reminds me of the poison induced agony of the dog shown dying incessantly on TV to gain support for the Iraq war by special interest parties. Alarmists trying to get us emotionally whipped up so we’ll give support to something that if given time to think about we would know is dead wrong.

Why haven’t the politicians commissioned a team of economists or other smart people to do an analysis of this mess and make rational, well thought-out recommendations along with potential ramifications of each alternative rather than make subjective un-educated guesses about what might work with little or no thought to what may happen later?

Banks said on CNN “We won’t misuse the money” – hMMMMMMMMM, yeah, right!
Then they take our money and not lend it back to us, interest free loan to them, what a deal! And then close the companies we work for!

Latest hustle – Now all the maggots are clustering around the wound (legal maneuvering) by becoming “Bank Holding Companies” to cheat us out of our money! They never wanted to be a bank holding company, no they do – get the money and convert back later!

We should bail Social Security and Medicare out and ensure the future of these vital programs before we bail-out anybody or anything!!!!

Why do I not hear how these bail-outs will affect the future of America and programs we care about and need (Medicare, Social Security, education, et.)

If the auto makers did file bankruptcy, yes it could be bad, but bailing them out could be worse! Where is the analysis?

The politicians are not thinking the long range effects of these bailouts through. IT IS GOING TO BACKFIRE! It has been reported that the job situation will get worse for the next 2 to 3 years (can you imagine?), who will be working to pay the taxes required to pay for all these bailouts??? Not to mention the on-going expenses of the Government?
If no one is working, who will buy cars???
Who will pay for Social Security, education, and Medicare, etc.???

Just an average guy’s opinion – according to CNN polls, 75% of Americans feel the same way!!!

Now that the cities and states are getting in on the free money (bailouts) when you see 4 workers watching one work in some other state, you will have the satisfaction of knowing you are paying not only for the ones in your state but all the other states as well!

Here I am a middle income average American and these executives who make 30 million dollars a year ask me for money??? If they believe so much that they can make it work they should put up their own money, probably if 10 of them got together, they could put together $35 B and then they don’t need us.

My experience has been that when an employer wants to let me go, they just give me 2 weeks notice and I maybe get unemployment for a short time, but these auto workers get a $100,000 buy out, retirement and healthcare forever! let the auto execs figure out where that buy-out money, etc. is coming from, I don’t want to pay it!!!

For the last 50 years, these people that work in the auto industry have made $40 an hour while we as average Americans made $7 an hour now they want us to finance their buy-outs, retirement and healthcare, NOT FAIR TO THE REST OF US! (is this America, land of equality?

Union not giving any concessions, the auto execs should be asking the union to bail them out, they probably have the $30+ B.

If it happens, the Government needs to have a permanent 51 % of the stock and a seat on the board final board authority on ALL issues – every money man in every deal I was ever involved in required a controlling 51%!!!

All auto workers (and execs) salaries capped 2 % raises per year like the rest of us.

NO golden handcuffs nor parachutes!

They pay part of their insurance like the rest of us

They get the same retirement as the rest of us, contribute to 401 Ks.

10 days off a year like the rest of us

Give the auto makers money, when the rest of us are not working (for the next several years), who will buy the cars? They will go broke and all we’ll have to show for it is a massive debt and nothing to show for it but the auto workers will have their fat retirements (that’s probably where the money will go anyway, the execs have probably used their retirement funds for other things), their healthcare, and buy-outs! But that’s ok, that has recently become the American way, make a few people rich(er) while the rest of us starve.

All the (can’t find the right word) are lining up for the handout like kids in a candy store, and flying their chartered jets to pick up the money.
Is there any adult supervision in Washington??? Are the smooth auto maker execs just too slick for the hayseeds in congress??? Or, did the republicans (intentionally lower case) finally do an end-run around the (very unpopular) failed attempt to invest Social Security and Government in general in the stock market???

“THEY” (politicians) JUST DON’T GET IT!! THE PEOPLE DON’T WANT TO BAIL OUT THE AUTO MAKERS (NOR ANYONE ELSE)!!!!!!

I’m beginning to see the same fast shuffle shaping up with the potential auto makers bailout as with the original $700 B bailout – that is every poll on TV the week before the $700 B was passed showed 78 % of Americans did not want the bailout (recognizing that 10% of us don’t have a clue and 10% are rich), leaving 2% undecided) – so they waited until Saturday to pass it and the stock market crashed the next week. Another thing “they” don’t get, this was a “no confidence” vote for the Washington crowd! (I figure bush will give us the same “Saturday treatment” this weekend and do an end run aroud the Senate)

Do they really think we are all stupid? Or have they just figured out – like the oil companies (and a few others)– that they can do what they want and get away with it?

“They” don’t listen, so we answer their bogus passage of these bailout with getting our money out of the stock market!

I think most Americans believe that cronies are getting the money and we line their pockets with the 20 million dollar salaries, golden parachutes, etc.

“They” seem to conveniently forget that big airlines in the past have filed bankruptcy, changed their business model (with help from court appointees who are not getting the $20 M dollar salaries), and are now “back in business”. (Yes they did get some money but at least they went through the capitalistic process of bankruptcy). These auto guys want to get our money and continue “business as usual”!

Although the union now says it will sit down and talk about it, they have not said what they will do, they should hammer out and sign a deal, show it to the government for approval and then maybe ask for money.

If the government goes through with this madness and gives (sorry, loans) them the money, we should get 51 % of the company – all the money men/backers I ever knew ALLWAYS wanted (and got) 51 %!

This just in.
Oh, it’s not a “bailout” anymore, it’s a “bailout LOAN”!

Oh, I see, the polls show that the American people don’t want us to bail them out so we’ll just call it a “loan” and then forgive the “loan” later (like eating an elephant – bite-by-bite).
It works out the same though because when they fail, we won’t get paid back so what difference does it make what you call it?
It’s really just a republican end-run around the failed (and very unpopular) attempt a couple years ago to invest Social Security money in the stock market (it appears that our new President may have missed that).
Our money will be put into those cushy retirement and healthcare accounts (not to mention the last minute employee buy-outs), while we starve, the ex-auto workers will be fat!
So now we are going to loan money to a company whose stock is worth what it was in 1949 (in today’s dollars, the stock would be less than WORHLESS) – why do you think the stock is worthless? – HELLOOOOO, NO ONE WANTS IT!!!!
NO INVESTOR THINKS THESE COMPANIES CAN BE MADE PROFITABLE!!!! GUESS WHAT, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DON’T THINK SO EITHER – DON’T LOAN (GIVE) THEM A DIME!!!!!!!

ALL THE ABOVE APPLIES TO CITIES, STATES, AND WHOEVER ELSE IS IN LINE FOR A “LOAN”!

Now $35 B and once they get that it will be easy to get another $500 B with some other sob story not based in fact with no business model changes and with the rationale that they just “thought” it was $35 B but now know it’s $500 B more, ultimately being $500 B + .and since we are already in we might as well give it to them – PLEASE STOP IT NOW!!!! ! Just look at the numbers given by the auto execs themselves and reported on CNN:

1) GM burned through $6.9 B in the third quarter leaving only $16 B as of September 30, which means they will run out of money April 1, 2009 ((at a $7 B per quarter burn rate).

2) They are asking for $35 B. Divide that by 3, so they will get $12 B each or less than 2 quarters at a burn rate of $7 B per quarter which would extend them to July 1, 2009.

2) They said (in October) they needed $11 to 14 B to continue normal operations but did not say that the $16 B they had will only last them about 2 quarters and that the (less than) 2 quarters financed by us will only keep them afloat for less than 2 more quarters.

3) So if they do not get the money from us they will be out of money April 1, 2009 and NO BODY in the business world will loan them money to continue operations!

4) But if they do get our $35 B ($12 B each), lasting only until July 1, 2009, what happens after that? I feel safe in saying that not enough people are going to be back at work in the next 6 months to buy cars thus contributing to operating capital, so what will happen to them then, well of course they’ll be back for another $35 B +!!!! Talk about good money after bad…

The $12 B is not nearly enough to begin with so they will be back later for (a lot) more.

If jobs do not pick up within 2 years (which is likely), then 8 quarters (2 years) at a burn rate of $7 B per quarter is $56 B and that is not counting the year (4 more quarters equals another $28 B totaling $84B!) it would take for people to get back on their feet enough to buy a car! All told $114 B and we all know that if they say $7b a quarter, it is at least twice that.

Why not wait and see what they come up with without our money and on their own by April 1,? If nothing, then let them file bankruptcy and save us potentially $100 + B?

And now the latest, politicians are talking about taking already approved money from an energy efficiency fund targeted for the auto industry for the bailout (sorry again, loan): what about energy efficiency, and, really, we know that this is just really just a fast shuffle, they will get more money from us later to replace the money in the fund, why not just be upfront? Well we know, just another shaft!

All these huge money numbers scare the daylights out of me!
And they seem to dwarf the few billion dollars it was said was needed to finance Social Security.
Bailouts/loans are going to ruin our country in the short and long terms, the politicians with these “bailouts/loans” are going to erase the concept of the “American Dream” and commit us all to slavery for decades!
There will be no Social Security, Medicare (nor Medicaid), no healthcare, no education for America’s children, no jobs, no bank accounts, no food stamps, no ADA, No SBA, no school loans, no owned homes, we will all starve!
BUT, there will be a rich class that will never notice that anything happened and all the talking heads on TV will just keep on talking and not help save any of it!

I guess we are going to get the “pass it on Saturday Treatment” again…

WHO IS GOING TO BAIL OUT AMERICA????

Someone wrote earlier that that America needs to hang on to its manufacturing base, HEELLOOOO, the politicians have been allowing that to go offshore for the last 20 years – ITS GONE! The auto makers aren’t the last, they have already died, just no one except rich politicians have told them!

Just wait until the Chinese get worried about the safety of their investment in T-bills and decide they do not want to re-invest their 45 % stake in our debt! Talk about UGLY!

Why is everyone putting the blame on UAW? Did anyone forget last year when the Union made concessions to GM and then this past January, GM rewards their CEO with a $20,000,000 bonus? Come on people, wake up.

If Citigroup and wall street deserve a bailout then everybody else does.

Atleast GM didnt put world financial system on the edge.

The UAW needs to take a hike…they have done nothing for us the tax-payers in the past and all they care about are their wallets.

I’ll tell you a story of union workers; so my father-in-law use to work for a steel mill as a Supervisor…walks in and says why aren’t you working. Well…my light bulb is out in my office…okay well change it since it’s a simple bulb? Not my job says the union guy, then fine he goes to the cage and says to the maintenance guy…can you go down the hall and change Mr. Joes light bulb…well no I’m on break with my buddies. So the supervisor tried to take the light bulb, and guess what the reply was…if you change that bulb we all strike!

Oh…here is a better look at it…a Supervisor is sitting on the dock trying to get a shipment off that is imperative for the customer…its 5 tell close for the weekend and the guys jumps off the fork-lift to B.S. with the other hard workers there…the whistle blows and then the Supervisor says wait…we need this load on…sorry off the clock the worker says….weekend! So the Supervisor being responsible like normal operated the fork-lift and the shipment is off and guess what happens next…Strike…and they all get raises. In both stories this actually happened…this is the type of environment bread by Unions…they only care about the worker…and not the product…and not us….the tax-payers. People do you not see how they have been sticking it to us for years…that’s right our memories are only as long as our arms. Who among us can say that buying a car is a pleasant deal…I know I can’t… They say lets give them $10K off a deal, we’ll give you one car free if you buy the other at full price….I don’t about you but this thing has gone nuts…and if we give them a dime….then the UAW needs to shut up…and make all the concessions our representatives that we put in office tells them to do…they opened up Pandora’s box buying asking for the money…and you better believe we the Tax-Payers better get some immediate relief in sales price cuts…and help with our American Made Trades….and financing…

Did you know that the Democrats are trying to pass a bill to get rid of the secret ballot? What does that mean, if you are like me whom thinks the Union is a dinosaur that has lost its viability in all industries…it means that when they try to get a company unionized…and people vote yes or no…the ones that normally no will now be open to scrutiny since they will know who you are. What does that mean…Gestapo tactics on their part to get what they want…that’s what it means… Why would the Democrats think this would be a good plan…I guess it’s all about CHANGE RIGHT!!!

In a nut shell….yes they gave out the TARP money with no strings, but realized very quickly they made a mistake on how it was given out and with what conditions. Does that mean you keep making the same mistakes…heck no that would be stupid right…. Then people say well its only $15MM. Okay if GM alone is burning through cash at a rate of $6B a month…and sales are down by 45%….then what kind of yo-yo math do you think will keep them a float until March….stop wasting my grandchildren’s money….now!

The general worker in America can’t afford their dam cars…and the over head costs to produce the cars leave us with a piece of junk. The only one of the three that truly gets a good check mark for trim work is FORD…the rest is pathetic attempts to hide their over-head costs that we seem to want to keep paying with the bail out….

No bail out…stop wasting my tax dollars on irresponsible people…they made the mistakes…we’ll get through it and a new lean machine should emerge…if its only FORD…then they earned it.

Chapter 11 all the way…and get rid of the UAW….

Mike

Let them fail is free market economics and follows Darwin, if you want to extrapolate science to the auto industry.
Since there have been little in the way of solutions here is an 8 step approach from an attorney/CPA:
1. Line up external financing, some govt funds and conduct a structured bankruptcy, which allows the automakers to get out of the dealer contracts, UAW contracts, etc….
2. Renegotiate labor expectations, including hourly rates and benefits and offer profit sharing to employees.
3. Shut down Hummer, Saturn, Pontiac and Buick and sell SAAB.
4. Reemerge to sell Cadillac, Chevy to consumers, GMC-Commercial only and based on profitable models, rebadge to Chevy.
5. Only two trim levels will be offered on each Chevy/Cadillac similar to what Acura does. This should simplify Mfg process.
6. Sales will be conducted by limited dealerships (one per xxx,xxx population) where they don’t floorplan and only carry two trim levels of each vehicle as demos. All sales will be conducted via internet from dealership and/or home/business. Ordered vehicle shipped to desired dealership and made ready within 30 days using just in time manufacturing.
7. Establish GM Service Corp, which is a entity that franchises service organizations (i.e. current dealers can be bid on this to become one) and receives franchise fees.
8. Warranties covered by a third party that pays portion back to GM.

Let’s remember that the foreign auto companies employ American workers, build cars in America and buy their parts for the cars here. I went to a Honda dealership the other day and looked at the price tag for a new Honda Accord. It cost about $30,000. The car was assembled in Marysville, Ohio; the US content of the automobile was 65%. The Japanese content was 20% — probably the engine. My daughter drives one of these; it is a fine car; well finished, quiet, powerful enough and it requires little maintenance.
If the Big Three auto comapnies made a car as good as this one I would buy it. But they don’t, and they will be unable to do so until they are restructuerd, top to bottom. We have seen today that the UAW is unwilling top face this reality. I believe that, bailout or no, they are doomed. They will fail if our money — in huge amounts — is taken to keep them alive for a few more years or if it is not.

They are a 1950s business model trying to stay alive on other people’s money in the twenty-first century; they are not viable businesses anymore and it doesn’t matter if they get bailout funds or not. We are going to feed our flesh and our futures to a dinosaur

Let the free markets do their thing. The companies will go out of business, but the infrastructure will remain. Investors will then buy their assets and put together a much better team that doesn’t have all the fat that caused them to fail in the first place.

We also need to eliminate the unions; the only way we can do this is if “we the people” reject them and refuse to join them. Our country is mature enough to work in a truly free market environment without people being taken advantage of. It’s not always about the wages; it’s also the cost of living and the preservation of our wealth; and the free market sets this balance.

Crystler was bailed out before and now they are back again. As long as these companies know that uncle sam will be bailing them out when they make mistakes, they will take on risk that they otherwise wouldn’t had they been allowed to fail.

The majority of americans say no……lets be lean, and take a small pay cut and maybe save your jobs. I can’t believe the UAW is playing games like AIG. And here they have been whining that they descerve the same. I’m tired of working two jobs, taking care of my BILLS and Mortgage knowing that if I fall ill I may lose everything. Step up UAW!!!!!!

The U.S. still has significant military presence in Germany, Korea and Japan. Our military presence subsidizes a significant portion of their national defense. Thanks to the U.S., they can focus their national expenditures on providing great health and social programs for their people. As a result their companies have no “legacy costs” to burden their corporations internally. This also enables foreign corporate conquests which reinforce the status quo when profits remit to the home country. Korea and Japan also engage in currency manipulation to supercharge profit remits.

The U.S. again is so generous that it allows these same nations to ship their union built cars into the U.S. at low tariffs and allows them to set up plants in the U.S. with non-union labor.

In the meantime the Detroit Three are effectively prevented from exporting to the Japanese and Korean markets and tariffs into Europe are double.

In addition the Detroit Three pay massive Pension and retiree Health care costs since the U.S. government can’t.

This is called “Free Trade.” And the Detroit Three have failed business models.

Eighty percent of you people out their in wonderland have your heads buried in the sand. You pop your head out of the hole long enough to listen to a commentary then stick your head back in the sand.
Do yourself a favor and learn how to read and therefore, educate yourselves on the facts.
Read some of the JD powers reports. Ford and Gm cars get better scores than foreign brands. Gm has come a long way on becoming leaner and meaner.
They don’t even mow most of the grass around the building anymore because their trying to save money. GM has disconnected every other light bulb on their streets and around the perimeter of the buildings to save money. I can go on and on about their cost savings, many of which have affected me personally. I know because I work there.
I’ve put 28 yrs. of my life into that place and it pains me deeply to see how uncaring and crass people are when I might possibly lose my job and my retirement. WE ARE ALL AMERICANS.
But that’s okay. When my job is gone, don’t expect me to come into your store and buy something that you need to sell to stay in business.
I won’t have the money to put into the economy by traveling.
And I will probably be all done donating to charity’s because I won’t have any excess cash.
Last year I had to pay in $40,000.00 in taxes to the feds. That’s the thanks I get for being a productive worker and spending 12 hrs and day 7 days a week in the shop away from my family.
The upside to losing my job is I will no longer have to pay tens of thousands of dollars every year into federal and state taxes that other people reap the benefit from. I will be at home with my family. I can finally sit at home like a lot of you and feed at the public trough. I’m getting old and worn out so I’m ready to throw in the towel on trying to get ahead. I figure unemployment will see me thru until I can draw social security. That’s my plans. I think the big three needs a helping hand.

Sure give the big 3 a bailout. That way all the people who are losing their homes can move into their cars to live

Let’s face it. The big three have no one else to blame than themselves. If they had dumped those worthless UAW workers and their contract years ago, they might have some chance to survive. They consistently fought calls for better cars with better mileage standards and better quality. This simply cannot happen with these money grubbing UAW workers. They truly live in fantasy land while the rest have to face reality. Maybe if they have to face foreclosures like many others, they might understand what the real world is like. The UAW is one of the last bastion’s of legalized EXTORTION. in this country. I also agree with SJ from Dallas. Why is it that UAW worker with no college degree is making more money than our teachers. At least our teachers are producing a quality product. To bad the UAW can’t. I will buy american but just not from a UAW plant.

I don’t think they should bail anyone else out.when is it going to stop when the government make the dollar worthless. If they bail out the auto industry, They should bail out all fail industries i bet the people that already lost there jobs,don’t think the auto industry job are any more important than thier jobs were.

If the UAW and others like Me & YOU take a pay cut will the Federal, State, County and City workers take theirs to?

How about our so called ‘leaders’ in State Government & Washington DC?

Will they accept a cut in bennies? to help America out?

House taxes in some states for a home that is 60 PLUS years old is almost 12 grand a year now.

How can you expect people to take pay cuts when the GOVERNMENT workers
et. el will not HELP by taking their ‘hair cut’ to!

We are paying : 30 % PLUS in federal taxes MORE with alt min taxes, then 15 % in FICA taxes then another 6 % PLUS in state income taxes, When you throw in sales taxes, use taxes, property taxes, Fuel taxes, etc, etc, etc, thats almost another 6 % PLUS taken from YOU!

Folks that is almost 60 % TAKEN in Direct and hidden taxes!

It’s no wonder we are SINKING…ALL OF US!

Let them fail, and let it be quick!

Even if it means 1 million jobs are lost, so be it…even if it equates to 10 million jobs lost when ’suppliers’ and ‘affiliate’ companies are impacted (which it won’t impact them to the extent some of these draconian scare tactic postings make it sound), so be it…bottom line is Detroit is broken beyond repair thanks to the UAW and incompetent management, and they’ve truly earned what they deserve.

Don’t insult me further by throwing away my hard earned tax dollars on a bailout/’bridge’ loan (or whatever you want to call it) for these idiots!

The Big 3 do deserve a LOAN. Please make sure you are referring to it as that…. it is a loan that will be paid back – much different than the handout to wall street of a much larger magnitude. There are a lot of things people are missing in all these spiteful comments about the Big 3 and the UAW.

Yes, the UAW makes great wages, but they have already made cuts in the last few years and have agreed to do more in the future – it’s just timing that is an issue. Also, before you kick them while they are down, maybe you should try doing their job for a while. It may not be the most difficult, but it can be extremely boring. I worked a manufacturing job before I went to college and there is nothing more tedious than doing the same thing a couple times a minute for 8 hours on end. If you don’t believe me, sit at your kitchen table and flip a nickel over twice a minute for 8 hours. See how long you last before it drives you insane. Yes, there are lazy workers – just like there are in any field. But the majority of them are hard working and don’t deserve so much hatred.

Ford, GM, and Chrysler are linked in so many ways that failure of one will cause huge ripples in the other 2. Suppliers will go bankrupt if GM pulls their business from them. If a supplier goes bankrupt who will supply parts to Ford or Chrysler?… or Nissan, Toyota, or any of the foreign automakers that are manufacturing in the US? A failure of one of the Big 3 will have huge ramifications across the country. You think we are in a recession now?!? Put a million more people out of work and see how we are doing then.

And it is important to note that a car does not go from design to manufacture in a year. The life cycle is typically 4 to 5 years. So 5 years ago when the Big 3 forcasted what to design and manufacture in today’s world, it was based on what was going on 5 years ago. Who knew gas prices would sky rocket and small cars would be more in demand? Due to CAFE standards the Big 3 have always had to manufacture small cars to offset the emissions on the SUVs. But these small cars are sold at a loss and have been just so they could market the SUV. So 5 years ago when SUVs were really in demand who would have expected such a roll reversal?!? They just can’t react to their marketing plan that quickly when there is a 5 year lead time on development.

Not to mention that quality of vehicles by the Big 3 are not nearly as bad as people make them out to be. They have improved significantly in the last decade but can’t seem to overcome that mindset that they make crappy cars.

Before you ask why you should help them, be aware that the Big 3 and the UAW are supporters of many charities. And when Hurricane Katrina went through New Orleans, the Big 3/UAW sent almost $18 million dollars to assist.

I don’t have a huge problem with the way congress is grilling the Big 3, but why didn’t they do that with the Financial Industry? They are as much at fault for the downfall of their industry but no one seems to care. In fact AIG is offering “retention payments” to keep their leaders that caused them to be in this mess. How come they get to award their upper level management with bonuses while the CEOs of the Big 3 will be drawing salaries of $1, if this loan passes? And the CEO of GM’s head is on the chopping block while an AIG exec get a multimillion dollar bonus for helping run his company into the ground?!? It just doesn’t make sense!

a division of chrysler makes tanks GM division makes humvies what the hell is wrong with you people the big three got us through WWI and WWII who might i ask will make our weapontry if the big three goes down they were the only one after 911 donating millions of dollars GM 1 million dollars 20 suburbans ford 1 million dallors chrysler 10 million dollars Harly davidson motorcycles how much did honda toyota and the others ZERO !!!!!!

only way to do it is make it a loan secured by everything they have

Let’s compare:The fed provides bunch’s of dollars to stuff in bank vaults to prop up investment bankers, bamkers, brokers and others, who produce NOTHING, except what has turned out to be toxic waste, and by the way personally benefitted to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars to a select few, but it’s a terrible thing to provide 1/10 of the money needed to an industry that not only produces something, it benefits millions of us across the country. No question Detroit has management problems, why is it that the same charges are not leveled at AIG ,Bank of America,Wachovia, Wash Mutual, and on and on. I say to you supporter’s of George the stupid, get your head out of your a– and understand that people who actually work for a living deserve more of a break than the slimy folks on Wall Street that got us into this mess, along with George the stupid and his ilk.

Everyone seems to be worrying about we American will not buying American cars if they go into BK. Guess what I am not going to buy anymore American cars because their greed has been exposed. I will not trade my hard earned dollars with companies that pay workers the benefits that they receive. Where else in America do workers get these benefits. The American car companies have been bilking billions of dollars for many years. Let the unions die!

The White House most definitely needs to stay out of the Auto bailout. Why? Because American automakers will continue to suffer at the hands of the UAW until something is done to eliminate or severely limit the power of unions. And here’s something to think about to all those who complain that we’re becoming a Socialist country – what do you think a union is? It decides that you’ll pay a fee to get and keep your job. It decides how many breaks and when you get them. It decides if and when you get raises. It decides that seniority trumps skill. It decides that swearing at management and customers isn’t a good enough reason to fire someone. Oh silly me – that’s not a Socialist situation – it’s a Dictatorship! The UAW needs to be dissolved immediately. Then let’s have the Senate bailout vote.

hell no they dont need to get a bail out they NEed to suffer. this will never change because you got some DUMB JERK RUNNING A BILLION DOLLOR COMPANY

The UAW must go. I heard today that they are unwilling to take pay cuts. I just found out today that my bonus was cut 80%. Since everyone else must take pay cuts or lose their jobs, then the overpayed UAW should have to sacrifice too if they want my tax money.

Come on! The discussion focused on the ‘rights’ and ‘wrongs’ of the fed bailout misses the point: last night this was within the grasp of the UAW to resolve by concessions. If they don’t care enough to have a job at more competitive rates to help the companies survive, I’ll be damned if I can support using tax money to save their day.

I have lived on the outskirts of suburban Detroit my entire life. My father works for a seat belt and airbag supplier, several of my uncles work for GM and Ford, and my grandfather designed a portion of the Chevy Cobalt just before he retired. High schools in my area have programs designed specifically for students who aspire to be engineers. Michigan is also home to many national recognized universities that specialize in engineering, such as Kettering University. The opportunities created by the Big Three drew several million people to Detroit and its suburbs. The culture and welfare of my area are largely dependent on the automotive industry.

Voting no on the bridge loans requested by GM and Chrysler and the line of credit requested by Ford is a vote to destroy the backbone of southern Michigan. Voting no is a vote to take away my father’s job, my uncles’ jobs, and my grandfather’s pension. Voting no is a vote to finally break the thin ice on which Michigan’s economy stands, and the rest of the nation WILL feel adverse effects. The question is not whether the Big Three deserve to be bailed out – it is whether the welfare of millions matters at all to any of you.

It is interesting to see that Saab and Volvo have received $3.2 billion from Sweeden to help the parent companies of these fine automobiles, GM and Ford and the Mother Country USA will not. Let’s hope that President Bush will do a good deed for this great country and save an industry in need.

The big 3 don’t deserve a bail out and the UAW needs to go. I am sick and tired of these over paid under performing CEO’s milking companies for hundred’s of million in pay and bonuses. Were they worth the price? Apparently not. A manager at MCDonalds could have drove the auto industry into the ground as well as these auto executives did for a fraction of the cost. I know several employees at hte GM plant in Bowling Green KY. and they make approx. $60.00 hr.putting bumpers on a car give me a break. Of course this hourly wage inludes benefits but who could justify these outlandish wages. Let the big three go into bankrupcy and restructure to ride the companies fat and reduce these riduculous wages.

it has almost nothing to do with deserving at this point. it is obvious that the big 3 put themselves in this position, what needed to occur were heavy concessions. the proposed deal that passed through the house was laden with them, and calling for even heavier concessions from the UAW in the senate was ridiculous at this stage in the game.

to the person below who said to get rid of the UAW, it is not wise, particularly in a recession to force de-unionizing. in an unstable economy unions are a minor defense for laborers who need to be unified.

the psychological blow to the capitalist spirit, should these companies (especially GM) be allowed to fail, not to mention the employment implications will be devastating. it could also lead to the loss of 1/2-1million more jobs.

that is something our economy cannot sustain at this point in the game. overnight the failure of senate republicans to view the macro-economic effects of this necessary bailout has already stricken a powerful blow to the asian markets. markets that the world has been crossing their fingers will help boost consumerism and aid in towing the world out of this global recession.

its a loan. approve it. demand proper restructuring and allow the companies to pay off their debts as the global economy picks up the pieces. now is not the time to teach lessons, especially not after so many companies received billions of dollars (not in loans) from the bailout package already approved. enough with the double standards!

The big elephant in the room is the UAW and no one was saying until yesterday. Do the auto workers want a lower-paying job or no job at all? The big 3 have a lot in common but the biggest one is that elephant. You will notice that you don’t see Toyota asking the taxpayers for money.

The federal government has nationalized the housing market already. Bailing out the auto industory is equivalent to nationalizing it. With the two most important market nationalized, the American capitalism would be dead. It would be a major milestone in the decline of the country.

A bail out to me wound amount to rewarding them for failure, where is the lesson in that? And further, where would it stop? Chapter 11 is a natural consequence for companies that do not manage their affairs well. Maybe this is an opportunity for the leaders to regroup and come again. When individuals like myself spend money I dont have on mortgages, cars and other possessions, finanical ruin is the result. Who bails out the ordinary guy? What makes GM, Ford and Chrysler more special than “him?”

Define deserve ? Did the Banks deserve billions, No but they received it without the retoric, meetings, oversight and voting by Senate, House, or Congress. Amazingly no one is upset!! Have we become so complaciant to not recognize “the right thing to do”. Yes they deserve our support, for giving us the hugh vehicles we wanted and that drive around Washington D.C.
I have yet to see any Government official in a Yaris, or Cooper.

Bankruptcy per se does not result in the loss of jobs, and may be the only means by which the Big 3 can relieve itself of the UAW stranglehold. I don’t understand why everyone thinks that more autoworker’s jobs are at risk through Chapter 11 than under the reorganization called for via government bailout funding.

Senior management of the Big 3, while not blameless, did a pretty good job of managing these behemoths. Had they opted to produce (largely unwanted) economy cars years ago, they would have faced bankruptcy much sooner. Why do you think Toyota et al opted to produce Tundras, Titans and, in general, the largest pickups and SUVs on the market during the past few years? They were simply lucky that they were late to the game.

Furthermore, I can find no rationale that justifies the public salvation Chrysler, a privately owned company, when Cerebus itself won’t lend its own stepchild the money it needs to carry on.

Detroit did not produce big vehicles and somehow jam them down our throats; they produced what we demanded. And now, we reap what we have sown.

I applaud the Republican Senators for their backbone, common sense and not let the Big 3 hold American tax payer hostage. Bankruptcy is an option and Companies can emerge from bankruptcy in better shape. How is it that foreign automakers are able to make it and the Big 3 aren’t, what’s wrong with the Big 3’s business model? Why are Chrysler’s investors who have money not putting more money in? If their Investors are unwilling to step-up why should tax payers? Lastly, since when do tax payers have to give Companies money to innovate? Did anybody give Steve Jobs money to invent the ipod?

A Better Bailout Plan
For years now, the Big Three automakers have been unable to produce cars competitively, largely because they have to buy their employees’ and retiree’s healthcare through private insurance whereas workers in all other industrialized nations are covered by cost-effective national healthcare plans. Even the foreign manufacturers who produce here undercut Detroit by recruiting a younger, healthier workforce.
Now that the bottom has dropped out of the market, the Big Three are facing certain bankruptcy and need a bailout, possibly for loans to fund the $51 billion they owe to the VEBAs they promised to set up for their retiree’s healthcare. However, the VEBAs will purchase health insurance through private, for-profit, higher cost providers as compared to Medicare, with only a 3% overhead.
Before dumping billions of taxpayer dollars onto Management and stockholders, wouldn’t it far better to nullify the VEBA’s and to allow the UAW workers and retirees to be the first to enroll in a program based on the Conyers-Kucinich Bill (H.R. 676), an expanded Medicare with no premiums, no deductibles, no co-pays, and no hassles. Like Social Security, the H.R. 676 program would be funded by a payroll tax of 4.5% from employers and 3.3% from employees.
Will this save money for Detroit? You bet. It will immediately cut thousands per car and truck off unit costs while requiring only incremental and smaller taxpayer assistance. If we’re going to bail out the Big Three, let’s do it in a way that solves a real problem that is strangling U.S. manufacturing; the burden of private health insurance.

The automakers being in over their heads and nearly out of business is their own faults. After all the money they have made from the horrendously overpriced cars they sell, there is no reason (other than irresponsibility) that they should be in this position. I do not think the hard working Americans that are forced to live paycheck to paycheck and struggling to make ends meet, should have to pay taxes to bail out companies that squander their money on frivolous things. It’s just simply not right.

what they “need” is a bailout for the bloated retiree obligations. what they “need” is to sustain the UAW contract. what they “need” is money to carry on the failed policies of the last 30 something years.

N.F.W. in plain english.

what we really need to do is shed the retiree baggage they have accumulated, shed the unionized high dollar workers and paid layoffs, shed all but 4-5 models and several duplicate divisions and concentrate on mileage standards and green tech to advance into the future.

otherwise, let them go into BK and forget about cerebus who have wroitten off their equity and refuse to fund their obligations.

layoffs/ job loss is a foregone conclusion, BK or otherwise. why prolong the agony?

This will never end as long as government keeps handing out taxpayer’s money like candy. Let the free market ride this out and hope we don’t fall over the cliff. We’ve already set this hurricane in motion and we better all start huckering down.

Only AFTER the Big 3 declare bankruptcy (that includes top management being ousted) shuold they receive any funding. I do not think the Feds are capable of overssing a restructuring. Without the transparency that Chapert 11 brings it will be business as usual in Detroit. Where is Lee Iacoca when you need him?

Common sense tells me when you are making inferior products you deserve to earn less money than those who do it better. This is the only way to get your business to be competitive again. Period.

If UAW think otherwise then they are taking the industry hostage. This is a disservice for the workers they are representing.

I’d like to see EVERYONE in the big3 to make some sacrifice, from the CEO’s $1 pay to UAW’s contract…

Yes, Although i do believe that the big three are utter failures, where will these people the everyday man and woman go; Toyota, Honda not likely there not selling cars in the U.S. either. We do not need to make this an issue we didn’t make AIG an issue and they failed out right. give them the money and demand that they make new technology cars. Do not pass judgement on these people you might be next in this economy………

Worthless, useless, unreliable cars…and we are going to give them $34B AND take away all the incentives for making fuel efficient vehicles. Sounds great. When the Big 3 actually fail, it will be even more catastrophic than today and probably put the final nail in the coffin for this country. When Japan did the same thing to their banks, they went through 10 years of recession…but they actually made good products…we will go into a depression, never to emerge…our country will become insolvent, then fail. Eight years of Republican control…I guess we deserve it.

Let them fail! Let them go into bankruptcy! The government needs to back of providing welfare to private industry and let the mismanaged corporations go under. When they were giving out 0% financing and moving cars as quickly as they arrived 2-3 years ago they did nothing to save for a rainy day. Of course many of these sales were financed with home equity loans that are now also in jeopardy. Yet they continue to reward the execs for with multi-million bonuses and just don’t get it. They need to fail and go down hard. I’ve driven a Ford or Chevy for the last 15 years and will never buy American again after this fleecing of America(ns).

If you can bailout billionaires on Wall Street, you can bail out workers on Main Street. Do it today, with some constraints:
– First, if Ford wants to take over the whole mess, they should make an offer
– If not, the federal government takes over the companies, probably through preferred stock
– Executives are fired, with no parachutes, and replaced by engineers and other people with common sense making about $100k per year
– Retiree health care is moved over to Medicare, saving a lot of money, and extending the eligibility age down to 50, if needed
– Retiree pensions are moved over to PBGC, saving even more money, and there should be enough money in the plans to cover it
– Adjust wages to match Toyota, giving younger workers raises, if needed
– Adjust production schedules to meet actual demand, not crazy forecasts
– Accelerate the production of higher MPG vehicles and renewable fuels; anyone who objects will be fired immediately
– The new Obama government puts in place a ‘car czar’ who has complete hire-fire decision-making authority.

Come to think of it, we should go back to the TARP and implement all of the above on the Wall Street firms that accepted taxpayer dollars, too.

NO NO NO !!! I LOST A HIGH PAYING JOB, FORCED TO SELL MY HOME AND FILED BK..HELL, LET THEM GO DOWN IN FLAMES..THERE WERE NO HAND OUTS COMING MY WAY…401 K GONE..,YOU TELL ME !

The short term answer may very well be to loan the money to the big 3, but long term it’s a disastrous plan. It will lead to 3 weaker companies. Long term the best answer for these companies and our economy (including the big 3 employees) is to restructure. I’ve read posts that say people won’t buy a car from a bankrupt manufacturer. That’s nonsense! They would simply arrange for a third party to back the warranty. It will be very painful short term but in the end there will be good solid auto manufacturers that will not only be able to compete, they will be able to lead the industry. Virtually every business is suffering right now; those that are well managed will succeed, others will fail and new businesses will fill the void and tomorrow the sun will rise again.

No, car dealers have been gouging the public for decades. Shell games, high pressure salesmen, the BS Kelly Blue Book, lousy financing, and poor service is just the tip of the iceberg. For that matter let the industry rot, they’ll be bought by the foreign ones and better business models will be put in place. Let the dealers rot too, the strong and attentive will survive.

Something about this whole thing stinks, as the story seems to change on an hourly basis.

First GM and Chrysler said they had enough cash to last until 2/09..and the big 3 asked for 25 billion.

Then, a mere week later..it was 35 billion. Now..they can’t last until the end of the year.And..Bush..who was against a bailout when it was coming from the 25 billion already set aside for development of energy efficient models, is now saying that TARP funds may be a strong possibility.

Meanwhile, the UAW must not believe this to be true in terms of the big 3 having almost no cash…as they are against having the workers make the pay concessions that are required. Would they really rather be without jobs then with jobs?

Hardly…therefore the question remains..what is not being told to the public??

That said, either the Big 3 and the UAW KNOW they are getting the $$$$ and this is just another Senate/Congress dog and pony show…or, the pig headiness and stupidity that got them into this mess is so deeply entrenched that they can’t even shake it to save their own necks…never mind build a profitable business.

Either way, I say no bail out..they clearly can’t be trusted and it is therefore good money after bad, merely delaying the inevitable.

It is humiliating that we would consider coming to the rescue of an industry that has proven over and over again they are arrogant, prideful and completely alienated from the real world. The cars these companies make are made of plastic and are mostly crap cars that America has decided they are tired of being cheated out of thousands of dollars to buy plastic. It will be painful but they do not deserve to be rescued.

Do you remember EV1?

It’s GM’s first electric car, which GM would not allow the public to ever own.

The last leased EV1 car was pulled out of the hands of it’s owner in 2004.. GM then crushed them.

Do with GM what they did to progress in 2004.

Bye GM !!

Bye to the auto industry that refused to change and would sue at every turn any government or people that sought progress.

Sorry auto workers but the public ought not to support a industry such as this. Good people will be hurt but good people will rebuild and create a industry that is willing to progress.

The public in masses have pulled support for the products made by the big 3 for years. Even if you got money to keep building the big 3 don’t have buyers .. the end has come for a industry that refused to embrace progress.

I hope to purchase a plug-in electric car as my next purchase .. if I must wait 10 years or more I will.

We can’t bail out everyone. Someone said if we bail out the insurance industry and the banks, we have to bail out detroit. For one, I resent having to bail any of these companies out. All this mess is the result of nothing more than greed. Why should I bail any of you out? If you have that attitude, then my husbands bankrupt employer Circuit City needs bailed. You don’t see anyone coming to their rescue do you. They are in the situation they are in due to their own fault. The rest of the companies are too. Those that are not willing to change and aren’t the best out there need to allow to fail. It’s called the survival of the fittest. No handouts.

If the UAW is not willing to make concessions,then GM and chrysler deserve to go under.
I was all for the bailout of the big 3,but its evident that the UAW does not value job security in these tough economic times.Your not going to have your cake this time UAW,its time you realize its sink or swim,If you want to be standing in line getting government cheese in 9 months,remember you brought it on yourself

Bailing out the automotive industry is not for the poor lil guy that works in the factory. IT IS FOR THE RICH who will be devastated if they have to adjust their lifestyle to that of the line workers.
BAILING OUT FAILURES is not what democracy is about. We don’t need more automobiles, or MORE CREDIT. Credit and over zealous spending was choked by the BLACK ICING that the devil put on the CAKE, BLACK OIL that is.

There should be no doubt, the faster we hit bottom, the faster we’ll begin to rise out of this economical dilema.
Chapter 11 may or may not help GM & Chrysler, but the bottom needs to be hit sooner than later. Postponing the inevitable will certainly make it harder for all…

WIN WIN SOLUTION FOR ALL AMERICAN AUTO WORKERS
Instead of lowering the living standards of American auto workers in Detroit based companies, why don’t the law makers RAISE the standards of American auto workers OUTSIDE of Detroit as following:
1) Law makers should demand the transplants to pay their auto workers comparable to the American auto workers based in Detroit.
2) The auto makers in the south will still have big advantages because the cost of living is lower there, so the wages will be still lower.
3) They still won’t have to pay for retirees, so they will still have the cost advantages.

All workers, especially auto workers, will support this solution!

I am tired of hearing people say let the big three fail, it won’t affect me. Yes it will affect you and everyone you know! Go out and look at your car and see it for all the individual items that it is, instead of a single item. Where do all the materials come from? Who refines the materials? Who turns the materials in to useable parts? How do these materials get from plant to plant? One company does not mine (harvest), refine, manufacture parts, assemble and ship all the necessary components that make up a car.

Let’s take a closer look at a car. There is a good amount of steel, aluminum, copper (wiring), and platinum (catalytic converter). Notice all the plastic, rubber, glass, textiles (cloth seats, carpet), and you may even have leather. Don’t forget about paper. Open the glove box; look at the owner’s manual(s). Wouldn’t there be a significant drop in demand for these materials? How will the suppliers and refiners compensate for the drop in sales?

Many parts on a car are manufactured by a number of companies that are contracted. The big three go down and no longer need all those parts. How are those companies going to compensate for the losses incurred? And don’t forget about the fluids and spark plugs in new cars. Consumers wanted longer life fluids and spark plugs, less maintenance costs. With things like 100,000 mile spark plugs and 5 year coolant, won’t there be a major drop in sales for those companies?

The transportation industry plays a major role in keeping all these companies running. Overseas shipping, the railroads, and semi trucks move the materials, parts and the cars from one place to another place. UPS stops at my dealership twice a day. Now times that by the number of dealers in the U.S. that will be affected and UPS probably won’t require as many drivers as they have now.

This morning while driving I glanced over as a carpenter passed me and it made me start to look more closely at who is driving what. Phone company, cable company, plumbers, electricians, and various other contractors are using one of the big three’s trucks or vans. Then I noticed ambulances, police, fire, community service, tow trucks, hotel courtesy vans, city trucks and U-Haul’s fleet were all one of the big three. I am sure there may be some exceptions here and there, but I noticed quite a few domestic vehicles in that area.

The last thing I wanted to mention regarding affects is that the impact could even be global. What about the manufacture and sale of vehicles in other countries? They don’t only make/sell cars here in the U.S! Won’t plant and dealer closings in other countries have an affect their economies? I see a domino effect that may not be contained by borders. Every company that incurs a loss will have to pass that on to their other customers or go out of business. Be it the suppliers, the utility companies, cleaning companies, grounds maintenance (snow removal, landscaping) all the way down the vending machine companies.

The fact that we freely hand money over to the banks, yet make the big three beg for a loan just boggles my mind. The government forces emission requirements upon the manufacturers (import as well), yet requires a high corporate average fuel economy rating (CAFE). The costs of meeting these requirements within the time frame specified and still be able to sell the vehicles at a reasonable price has got to almost impossible to meet. How many people know that Toyota was fined for Clean Air Act violations involving about 2.2million vehicles? To me it looks like the government helped quite a lot in creating this problem and somewhere down the line it will affect everyone, you just may not see it directly. My big question, will your congressperson/senator take a $1 salary to save the American economy?

Bill is absolutely right.

The reason the Big 3 is uncompetitive is not because of poor management, but because of retiree health care costs that the transplants do not pay. Should we really punish a company for supporting their retired workers? If they didn’t, we, the tax payers, would have to pick up the cost anyway through Medicare. It’s either now or later. Maybe we should reward them by buying their cars.

Michigan offers some of the most generous unemployment benefits of the fifty states, largely due to political pressure from the UAW. Unfortunately, the State of Michigan is bankrupt. It has been a thrill to watch a panicky UAW beg for help from George W. Bush.

They don’t deserve the bail out because it not going to work.1- A lot of people have no job so people buy food not new cars. 2- They have poor
management and very bad UAW. Their workers get paid very high, they drive
the cars price too high. So people turn to Japanese cars which are cheap
and good. No matter how much money the
government give to them, they will burn it for nothing.

I favor propping up the supplier base to avoid chaos, and finding relief for the unemployed.

I am totally against the unilateral action by the Bush administration to misappropriate money approved for one purpose by Congress to another, and one which has been voted down. The constitutional integrity trumps present day economic judgements, even if well intentioned.

My hope is that the big three properties end up auctioned off and converted to another more useful purpose than their management has made of them. Just as in World War II, America faces a long emergency centered this time around on petroleum and the plants could do so much more than churn out energy hogs, they could produce mass transit equipment for instance.

But, the marketplace will decide. Perhaps led by government incentives. I don’t see the governnent itself running them, that is for sure.

i WOULD RATHER IT GO TO SOME ONE WHO IS EMPLOYING PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR A LIVING THAN THOSE IN THE BANKING WHO STOLE THE MONEY FROM MILLIONS OF WORKING PEOPLE’S IRA/401K PUT THE CONGRESS RIGHT ALONG SIDE THEM THAY LET THE FOX IN THE CHICKEN COOP. THE CONGRESS WANT THESE PEOPLE TO TAKE A SALARY CUT BUT THEY DID NOT ASK THE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN BANKING TO TAKE A CUT JUST THE MANAGERS THIS IS NOT EQUAL AND WILL NEVER BE SO.

i dont like giving money away to some business that they should be responsible for their own problems. however i can support something like this, but however i have family member like everyone else how makes parts for gm, chrysler, ford, and benz as well. i kinda blame congress for pushing these green initiatives on auto makers, the government is telling the auto makers to make a product that consumers do not even want. heck even import car makers that assemble vehicles in this country pay just as much or better without unions.

Do we have a double standard? When the bailout was given to the financial sector I heard nothing of renegotiating the pay scale of the white collar workers. Big deal that the CEO, CFO, CPO’s will only taking $1 salary, as they still will be receiving stock options and benefits such as the corporate jet for business & pleasure.

What I did here is how they are using the taxpayer bailout money for need retreats, big buck bonus for the brilliant worker, the same workers who helped bring this sector down.

Is it only the blue collar worker that who should be responsible to shoulder the burden. I do not like bailing out anyone, but I do support American jobs at a decent pay.

You have to be kidding me. These CEO bozo’s drive the companies into the ground and tax payers are going to now give money to them. This is like putting a tourniquet on a dead person. Remember, not many people like these companies anymore and prefer foreign imports that have high reliability and last. These companies are notorious for Poor: reliability, residual value, quality, design, etc. Not to mention the repetitive brands. Americans don’t like these companies and it shows in their yearly sales. So, stop pouring money into them. It will NOT help. You could give them a trillion dollars and at the end of the day, Americans want something different. Sorry GM/FORD/Chrysler, your products, design and management style are way outdated. America has moved on. Maybe you should also.

Big three do not deserve to fail. But it can’t be saved without getting its cost structure in-line with competitors. In fact, they may need to accept lower compensation until productivity and products are no longer below competitors.

Otherwise, senior UAW will continue to holdon to their benefits even though this prevents the companies from restructuring in a timely and cost efficient manner. Look at how many jobs have been lost because of underinvestment due to uncompetitive cost structure.

The UAW has outlived its value. They are employees, and should not be in on the “negotiations”. While they position themselves as stakeholders, they are in fact employees subject to the ups and downs of the industry. Trying to insulate themselves is not realistic. Having said that, they
(the workers) can contribute to the economy and make a good dollar doing it if they dump the union.

Everyone talks about the disasterous management of the big 3 and getting rid of them. Is it possible that they inherited this mess from previous leadership and are trying to make it work? Are we going to blame Obama for his disasterous leadership in 2009 after he inherits this disaster? Did we remove the banking leaders? Wait I think all of the big 3 indicated they would take $1 salary….what did the bankers agree to take…oh wait they wanted their bonuses. This isn’t the doing of the current big 3 leades. They have made significant changes how they do business through cost reductions in labor (yes there have been changes and concessions), in production, in benefits. But it takes time to undo 30 years of bad leadership.

If we keep the same UAW and senior management there is no chance the BIG 2 can survive and we will be wasting our money. (I say the Big 2 because Ford is evidently doing ok). All those who try to scare us neglect to mention that after we spent whatever billions for this and the next bailout and when the Big 2 come back for more and we have no more money to give for the 3rd and the 4th bailouts, then what? The Big 2 will go down unless the UAW and the executives are forced out. And the only way to force out the UAW (as well as existing contracts with thousands of dealers), is to let them die. Pop up Ford the health one. Let the Big 2 file for bankruptcy then come in with the monies saved now (ie. no bailout now) and put it in the new Big 2 or Big 1 with the existing factories, we have a better chance. I mean GM’s market capitalization is only 3 Billions now and yet it is buring 4 Billions of cash in a month? Forget that! The loan itself can buy a few GM. Or let’s just buy up Honda stock, which has a market capitalization of around 80 Billions. We can buy a good chunk of Honda and then all those who own Honda now will be “buying American” as we will share the profit. Heck, most of the US Hondas are make in the U.S. anyway. And with the money we save from no-bailout, we can help Ford and be assure that we still have a healthy car company here. Bailout the Big 2 just does not make economic sense. It is just a matter of time that the Big 2 will die. 4 Billion cash burnout rate per month? Who can save a company like that? We either bite the bullet now or let the UAW and the senior management burn through easily 30-50 Billions before we face the music. Either way the Big 2 die but we will be short of 30-50 Billions.

The UAW needs to go. The workforce needs to be open shop and competitive.

Not one dime of the American tax payers’ money should go to benefit the unions.

If it takes bankruptcy to free the auto makers from the unions, so be it.

Give it to the Auto Industry

No, the auto companies should not be bailed out by Congress, the Bush administration or the Obama administration. The automakers should go into chapter 11 and reorganize their companies. We are now going to throw American tax dollars into a black hole which is not going to fix the situation.

YES! When did going bankrupt become so popular should we all handle our financial problems by going bankrupt? This is punishing companies they owe that will only get a share of their money, all the people that will go home to their families without a paycheck from what part of America did these heartless people come from who insist “Let them die”

They deserve the bailout to save our economy but each of the CEO should accept the $1/ year for next 5 years, as well as the union should be broken down or MUST be paid just like the japanese automaker. They don’t care for others or how it hurts the company. So I think its about time for the Government to STEP UP and make that decision. They can’t take advantage of the union and keep pushing company into a DUMPSTER. That is the main reason why Big 3 needs Bailout.

Yes they definately do deserve a bailout. As soon as we earn 25 billion dollars and pay it in taxes we should give them the bailout. Until then we should stop giving out money we haven’t actually earned.

No. Somebody will come along to fill the demand and dealer networks that will be left behind if one of the auto companies goes out of business. They could buy factories, etc for pennies on the dollar, and create a new brand without the big overheard of the Big 3. Or Ford may just become the company to go to for an American car or truck

Absolutely it was the right thing for the Senate to defeat a bailout of the Big 3 automakers! Without serious, harsh concessions and restructuring, like those afforded by a bankruptcy, these companies will only become a serial borrower from the gov’t. Their whole strategy is to get the US taxpayer on the hook and then continually bleed more funding from them. It does nothing but perpetuate the status quo of bad union contracts, overbloated distribution, and poor product strategies and management. In the end, the taxpayer gets played for a sucker.

I have the answer. Give the three auto makers a loan package where they can only retool, producing only electric cars and sell them to all Americans who make less then $75,000 per year for a maximum of price of $12,000 per vehicle with no frills. We will buy the cars, with a tax reduction incentive for the first couple of years. The car makers are put back to work, the banks are loaning again and the US govt gets their loans repaid. This is the only way this will work.

What I find most amazing about all of this (and probably shouldn’t) is that the media is only telling half of the story. We keep hearing about the “Doom and Gloom” scenario which be created should any of the Big 3 fail and file for bankruptcy. What most of the media outlets fail to mention is that bankruptcy comes in two flavors – reorganization of debt and corporation liquidation. The only thing the media is reporting on assumes the latter of the two. Were the Big 3 file to reorganize, not only would they survive, but would have the opportunity to rebuild without being saddled with debts that they currently can’t manage.

As for the UAW, they’ve played a substantial role in creating this problem. Sure, Management failed to react to changes in the market, but the UAW makes it damn near impossible for the Big 3 to be competitive, even in their own country. Foreign automakers in this country pay their assembly workers an average of between $24 to $27/hr (before bonus), which is about the same as their UAW counterparts. So how is the UAW hurting the Big 3? Benefits. The current health care and pension programs have killed the Big 3. Even with the recent restructuring of GM’s benefits progam, the companieshave already lost billions that they will never recoup.

Of course, the Big 3 should be bailed out. Their failure would be devastating to too many families. It’s not all about the Big 3. Think about the companies who depend on the Big 3 for their livlihood. It would be a snowball effect. Too many families would suffer. Some are already suffering.

No they do not.
They produce low quality cars,
people do want to buy.
Ford probably can survive, but
the other two – let them out.

Bailout-no. Should we try to salvage the american auto industry? YES! I like the direction the Senate was going; a swift restructuring of the balance sheet and paring of operating expenses. If we can get those things up front we can get to work on the business model and other specifics when time and resources are available. Congress needs to turn it’s attention to many other matters right now; not get bogged down on $14B.

The Treasury should push everyone back to the table NOW!

The real question is “do we need to bail out the auto industry to save the economy”? The answer to that is unequivocally YES, whether they deserve it or not.

I oppose any money going to the Big 3. After reading Roger Lowenstein’s recent book, “While America Aged” I have nothing but contempt for the UAW and the myopic executives in Detroit. The book details how the pension obligations demanded by the UAW has forced GM into this situation. My fear is that Bush will give them the money anyway with no strings or protections for us taxpayers. I for one will never purchase a car made with UAW labor if my tax dollars are used to bail out the guy who got to retire at 55, while I will have to work until I drop dead.

It is disheartened to see that car inventor Ford & other 2 big Car giants in the world are at the verge of bankruptcy. On the other hand, judging from the attitudes of GM CEO & the UAW Chairman, they look like they don’t give a damn; they don’t feel ashamed of making mistakes in the past years of bankrupting the car industries in US. How can we taxpayers to bear all the burdens & mistakes they made ! Nobody can guarantee that the 15B can revive the car industry for good. If the 15B can only survive the 3 big car giants for just say 6 months, are we taxpayers have to keep on injecting cash? Under the global economy, we American car makers should ponder on how to survive the keen competition. In fact, American cars have lost competition to imported cars for more than 5 years, what are the 3 Car Co. CEOs & top executives doing in the past few years ? Only Chapter 11 can bring new ideas & administrations for the big 3 to start afresh to face the
keen competitive car manufacturing industry in the global economy !

OK everyone, with my humble preloaded PC calculator and Google’s help, I’ve crunched the numbers to give a figure to this supposed doomsday scenario we would have on our hands if the big 3 did go under.For comparison note that the bill for this auto bailout was set to have an initial installment of 15-25 billion depending on the proposal, specified as a “loan”, which a bankrupt company would have no ability to repay.

The alternative to that and potential worse case scenario is said to be a loss of 2.5-3 million jobs for those who claim to know.

So, without knowing all the details, lost tax revenue, and hidden fees this would entail; in simplified form let’s see what it would cost if these 3 million jobs were lost and the government had to, in the short term provide some sort of support.

Assuming each lost job is replaced by the equivalent of a 30k/yr in unemployment benefits to get by…

3,000,000 jobs x $30,000 unemployment/yr = 90,000,000,000/yr

Approximately 90 billion dollars per year.

This is 3-4 times the current bailout installment amount for now, but only about 13% of the 700billion financial bailout, and about the same as one years worth of the war in Iraq (100 billion*) for perspective. This does not include current health care costs, pensions, etc. which the big 3 and all related suppliers, dealers, etc. are currently covering. So this figure could easily double or triple.

US Census says the 2005 working age population is at 186million*, so:

3million/186million = about a 1.6% increase in unemployment.

This is not exactly how official unemployment figures are computed, which would probably be slightly higher since they use a figure of those “actively seeking work”, rather than simply working age population.

If they failed in the best case hopefully there would be more of a “market driven” restructuring of the US auto industry as the companies go under, get broken up, bought out, and replaced by new and existing manufacturers foreign and domestic. So these 3 million jobs would not all be lost, but reorganized. This 90 billion dollar/year figure would be the safety net required as these current employees find new work and get retrained. Ideally the old auto industry would be supplanted by new much more innovative companies, i.e. Tesla, but this would probably take 5 years. At worse, maybe Ford remains the only American game in town and foreign companies dominate.

So, without any background in economics, this is just a number to give a potential price tag to the worst case scenario that many try to scare us with, yet provide us no figure.

90 billion a year, do we roll the dice?

*
Sources:
Working age population 2005 – http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/population/006808.html
Cost of Iraq War – http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/10/news/economy/costofwar.fortune/index.htm

If they get rid of the disastrous management of GM and Chrysler and also get rid of the UAW, then with a loan the auto companies have a chance of surviving and we should give them that chance. If management and UAW remain as before, that is just throwing good money after bad and they will come back again and again for more money after they have pissed away the money they have gotten in their inimitable style, whining again and again with the same problem until we either the federal government is broke (as if it is not already) or we finally have enough and get rid of them.

It’s really a matter of propping up the labor market for another few months (or ideally years) to avoid the negative effects of adding another million to the the currently unemployed. While I believe in free markets and a company’s ability to survive being based on it’s own viability in the marketplace, there’s a larger economic downward spiral in place that cannot be simply written off. All in all, it’s a sad state of affairs that the government needs to parent so many others for irresponsible actions.

Why is the government rewarding failure? The big 3 did not invest wisely during the good times, and now they are paying dearly for it. I say allow those companies that have conducted sound business to rise to the top. Either way, GM is doomed. I do not see folks lining up to buy a vehicle that is sub-standard.

They don’t “deserve” a bail out. They “should” get a loan. Complete with covenants and stipulations – like any private financed paper. This would be possible if the credit markets were not afraid of their own shadow, and the banks were not hold the country hostage in the name of “prudence”.

The problem is that people are confusing a bailout with a bridge loan.

What “us” as the banker need to determine is: Is it more expensive AT THIS POINT IN TIME to let the big 3 fail, than to loan them the money with convenants at a good interest rate. Yes, is the answer.

If we allow these companies to fail, the collateral damage – to bondholders (the very banks we are trying to fix), the CDO’s (that are backed by the very insurance companies we are paying dearly to fix) and to the economy – 3 million unemployed overnight who will be eligible for unemployment, the retirees who will look to US to fund through medicare etc. is considerably more than $14billion in the long run. And, we will NOT get that money back.

ANY RATIONAL look at the problem gives you no other solution. The UAW, GM, Ford etc. DID get themselves in this mess, however these are extraordinary times, and we do NOT need any more shocks to the system right now. Later on, if they fail and the economy can absorb the fall, then I am all for having them fend for themselves.

This is NOT the time to grandstand and try and break the unions as this irresponsible GOP minority is attempting to do. Their reasons are not as noble as “proteting the taxpayor” or “listening to their constituents”. They are plain liars and thieves who have led us down a road to nowhere, and now are trying to repent in public while lining the pockets of the southern auto companies they have been “bailing out” for many years.

These guys MUST go, especially that idiot Shelby who is against anything resemling common sense. Isn’t he the same idiot that said it was “moral hazard” to aid homeowners, then because of that ideology the pricetag of the fix tripled. Kind of like seeing a small hole in the windsheild, but instead of filling it, letting it turn in to a crack all the way across the whole window, then having to replace it. Stupid GOP thinking. Pound foolish – penny wise.

Be real! They have been ripping off the American consumer for years. Have you ever left a car lot feeling good about the deal?

Well, sorry folks but I don’t work in the industry, nor have any connection to it. Don’t worry, you can apply for the jobs Obama is going to create to rebuild the infastructure. I’ll continue to ride my bikes.

The us auto makers sat on their hauches and watched japan and germany blow them away. To bail out these guys with out major consessions from the union is robbing the tax payers again!

NO BAILOUT. THROWING GOOD MONEY AFTER BAD WILL NOT STOP THE INEVITABLE COLLAPSE.
WHERE IS THE DETAILED PLAN TO WARRANT INVESTMENT IN THE BIG 3? ALSO, THIS IS NOT A TIME THE TAXPAYERS CAN AFFORD TO GIVE PAY RAISES TO THE JUDGES- TAKE IT OFF THE BILL.

NO!!! No bailouts. Let them enter Chapter-11 bankruptcy, get rid of the UAW and all those contracts and the present management… then let us decide if a new, reorganized “General Motors USA” owned by the taxpayers is feasible. Engineering and design work should continue, but actual production of cars will probably need to cease for at least a year or two. The emphasis must be on electric vehicles with minimal to zero gas consumption.

During the 5 years prior to 2008, annual light vehicle sales were approximately 16 million, largely fueled by “easy” money financing offered to consumers. The sales demand in 2008 has dropped to about 10 million units annually, not because of inferior quality of domestic vehicles (I’d argue that Ford’s quality is certainly upscale), but because financing is much more difficult to acquire, and also because current demand has been reduced by prior year “excess” sales. The auto industry is not blameless in its lethargic shift to 21st century technologies and products, but the industry did not fundamentally create the present crisis. Republican willingness to underwrite $700 billion in financial sector excesses, yet to deny $14 billion for automotive, is cynical and hypocritical. I used to support the Republican economic agenda, but no longer.

The US auto industry need these loans to get through this bumb in the road in the US economy. This is not about the automakers inability to design, develop and efficiently manufacture vehicles as it is about the inability of the US consumer and business people to secure loans required to purchase vehicles and finance thier businesses. Please President Bush help Detroit, help the US economy!!

It appears that only Ford will survive this onslaught. Chrysler forgot how to build good cars when Lee Iaccoca left. GM doesn’t have any idea what to do. They’re the Brontasaurus of the Auto Business. Ford has the best diversification of all three Auto builders. Ford should be assisted, the other two should enter into receivership.

If you just give it to the banks and the insurance companies why not give it to the Auto Industry. Also think about all of the Tax Breaks and government aid given to Foreign Auto makers to create or maintain jobs.

It is absolutely absurd that the government is even considering to bail out the Big 3, much less that they are actually going to do it. The strongest must survive. Maybe with GM and/or Chrysler dying off, this will be a wake up call for the strongest of the 3 to restructure internally and rethink it’s product and come out stringer than before. It would certainly gain the market of previous GM/Chrysler buyer dying to “buy American” even though the parts of the vehicles or some assemlby are niether produced or done inside the U.S. toyota and Honda are more American the the Big 3 combined if you get down to the crux of the matter. It’s time people start waking up and that elected officials stop doing what they think is best, which at everyturn turns out to be wrong, and do what thier consituents desire. Sure this will impact the economy, but it is not an armageddon scenario! what they should do is bailout the average American Consumer, forgive my debts if any. beleive me as 30 something male, i will turn right around and pump money back into the economy by purchasing the new auto I want. the latest music, fashions. i love to eat. i promise to eat out as much as i used to if not more. To go to the movies, the mall, the bars, etc. All my bills are paid and i wouldhave enough money to do all this, if it were not for inflation and absorbitant interest on back bills, etc.

This is a double edge sword, who’s there to bail me if I was to go out of business or loose my job? Not Uncle Sam the cash man. On the other hand, I hate to see my fellow AMERICAN out of work as well.

Personally I say let the big 3 should see if they can make it with out us, they have screwed us for many years with outrageously priced cars. Thanks UAW for sticking it to us.

You know we’re going to give the money regardless but I think we AMERICANS deserve a huge THANK YOU if it goes through

Since 2005, GM has lost a cumulative $72.4 billion, had its debt downgraded to junk, watched its share of U.S. auto sales shrink by almost 1 million vehicles and shed 90 percent of its market value. It introduced gas-guzzling vehicles as fuel prices rose, failed to slim down its product offerings and dealer networks quickly enough and wasn’t able to cap its labor costs in time to stem the bleeding. In September 2007, the company won the right to hire new workers at lower wages starting in 2010 — too far down the road to avoid the consequences of a recession and a credit crunch that engulf it now.

To GM’s critics, worries about cash are three years too late. The financial crisis wasn’t the culprit that brought the company to the brink of insolvency, as Wagoner told Congress last month. It was just the final straw in a succession of unresolved or unaddressed issues.

The issue is accountability. The big three should have saved their money during the good times. Sorry,FELLAS!

Truth be know this is all about pulling the teeth out of the unions and making gummy bears out of them…Big business has there pupits in the senate working overtime to accomplish there deeds. They care nothing about the millons of people that will suffer. To them it is a good trade off so they can make money easier in the future with no resistance to how they pay and treat people…They will be relentless in their attack and will only ease when they have the chains back on labor…It is a shame after all these years they are not yet smart enough to make money without resorting to this…pitting one group agaisnt the other and pointing fingers..remember together we stand divided we fall…May GOD have mercy on all of us…JWB

The automakers don’t deserve a bailout. But the rest of us don’t deserve a depression, either. Solution: prearranged bankruptcy without actually filing bankruptcy. All the stakeholders should give up something substantial: executives, board, stockholders, bondholders, UAW, engineers, car designers, etc. The alternative for them is bankruptcy in which they will have nothing – not even their 12 months of pay while not working. (I don’t understand why UAW workers with no college degree make so much more than teachers do.) For taxpayers we avoid being hit even harder for unemployment, health care, and takeover of their retirement system.

I think the big thing the UAW has always screwed up is negotioting for more when times were good then have to give back when times are bad – always out of sync with the economy. Negotiate profit sharing instead so compensation adjusts with the company performance.

Long term it appears we need to think about whether it should be illegal for a company to get so big we can’t afford to let them fail. Radical? Of course it is. But if, as they say, they are too big to let fail then don’t let them get that big again.

To those who don’t support the bailout… If those companies fail, what do you suggest the average American buy for a car? Honda? Toyota? Who does that benefit? What’s the obsession with those makes? They break down too, and then cost 5 times as much to fix. Do you think it really helps the US economy if you buy one of those? Yes, the US automakers are not managed so well, but they help form the foundation for our economy. If they fail, the economy will tank worse. Support the bailout, then stop buying foreign cars.

The Big3 does not deserve a bailout! They need to show that they are willing to make sacrifice first before we all make sacrifice to save them. The UAW has not made enough concession to save their own union jobs. The UAW workers are making so much money for producing product people don’t want to buy! Why should taxpayers bail them out.

It seems the UAW is taking a page out of the USW’s (united steel workers)planning book. The steel industry went from the best to practically nothing. It appears the UAW is willing to follow, “Pied Piper” style, right along with them. They’ll find the same results.

I agree that the big 3 have made their own problems but didn’t the banks? At least they weren’t throwing money at people irresponsibly who they knew could not afford it. Screw the banking industry and mortgage companies too if you are going to screw the big 3.

No! they dont deserve a bailout but it apparently is needed because of the their failures will have on the impact economy. But, what if these bridge loans are not sufficient or effective in reviving these companies? what next? more bailout? to what extent?

based on the products they offer, i can’t see them surviving even with a bailout. Bottom line is their cars are inferior in quality and reliability. That point cannot be argued.

On the other hand, i do feel some sympathy for the workers being blamed as part of the quality problem. many of them are hard working folks that take pride in their work. it’s unfortunate they are assembling that are poorly designed with what appears to be inferior materials.

Do the big 3 “deserve” a bailout? I don’t think that question is relevant. How about, “Is this the best way for the American people to spend that money?” Because automobile manufacturers have many shared suppliers, even just one of the big 3 declaring has a negative impact on every foreign auto manufacturer that builds cars in the US!!

Think about it, if GM/Chrysler declare bankruptcy, most of their suppliers will need to as well. Many of them will not emerge. It can take a supplier over a year to set up and ramp production of parts/components for a manufacturer. This means a Japanese manufacturer who shares a supplier with a bankrupt GM/Chrysler needs to bailout the supplier must bail out the supplier to maintain a flow of parts so it can continue to build cars. The competition of the big 3 is hurting as well (look at Total Industry Volume which has fallen by about 1/2). Their cash reserves are not unlimited. Think of the potential impact.

Sure, if one or several of the big 3 went out of business there would be market share up for grabs, but it takes cash to capture market share. It takes cash to become a DIP to your supplier. Don’t think for a minute that a failure of the big 3 would not result in layoffs at their competitors.

It’s the wrong question. Deserve? That’s got nothing to do with it. Many in Congress pointing fingers and making noise don’t “deserve” to be in charge of anything. No business has been harder hit by a totally unpredicted catastrophic series of events. Get a few bucks back from AIG….we still don’t know where that money went.

What I find disturbing with the whole bailout mess is that the government is just throwing money at these companies so that they can continue to do ‘business as usual.’ No oversight, no strings attached, no guarantees of ROI. I say let these companies fail. Spend the money on a universal health care system and guaranteed education through college for every US citizen.

Please no more bailouts. When Delta was failing, their employees took regular cuts in pay to stay afloat. Of course, Delta had not union. After many years the airlines have changed their operations.

Maybe the auto industry need to change their operation. This can not be done in a short period; therefore, I am against providing them money to help.

Can anyone pay my mortgage during this difficult time?
Samantha Sugar, Atlanta, Georgia

The general response I see here is so sadly ignorant… and spiteful.

This is a loan. A loan that is 2% the size of the handouts just appropriated for banks and insurance companies.

Wall street just got cut a check with minimal hassle, while you guys want middle America to cut their wrists, to the tune of millions of jobs.

Chapter 11 is a death blow. Stop comparing the auto industry to the airline industry – who cares if an airline is bankrupt? The service they provide is temporary; if the flight is available, you take it and you’re done with them. People keep their cars for years and won’t trust buying from a bankrupt company where their warranties may not be covered and resale values will plummet.

It doesn’t even make economical sense to deny this loan, as the damage a bankruptcy or two from the big three would cause far outweighs $14 billion dollars. This is not a scare tactic, or a talking point. It is fact.

I would like to see the big 3 get no money as for all other business in the United States don’t go begging to Congress but rather deal with it thru normal laws that were provided for us. The big 3 should do the same, follow the same rules as all American companies. They get so big so they can use the excuse of employment devastation if anything were to happen if they run out of money. No one really wants their cars now days anyhow. With the amount of dept they have, they will go under sooner or later no matter what amount of money the government gives them and everyone in the world knows this. I say let them go broke and be American for once. Chrysler is a private company and the owner has billions and they don’t even want to stick money into thier own so something is wrong and I wish our Congressmen would ask that and provide an honest answer to the American Public. The American people want to know WHY?

The other car makers are not doing that great. Why are you blaming the workers? They make maybe $27.00 per hour. What is wrong with Americans making a decent living to cover their family, health care and to buy a house — isn’t that the big dream. The make the cars the bosses told them to build. Why blame them? Even if they made $5.00 per hour the management team would be the same. Don’t you get it? Fire the top level and get someone in that wants to build the right cars for the market. You all certainly didn’t blame the big executives getting millions in bonuses.

“”Do they deserve a bailout? NO! I do think they need financial help but as long as the greedy union workers are there I don’t think they deserve a penny. Highly over paid workers making sub standard vehicles. Its funny how foreign automakers in the US are doing just fine. From Elliot”"

1). This is sounding more like a “humanitarian donation” than a loan. Therefore, keeping in mind that non-profits often should be measured at how efficient it is (e.g. “administration ratio”, how much of $1 donated actually makes it to the people that need it, passing through the agencies and management), I think the Big 3 are TERRIBLE, HORRIFICLY inefficient ways for the money to filter down to the workers. Don’t let current Big 3 receive the money. Let them get bought up by Honda USA and/or Toyota USA, someone who is more efficient at managing assets, and give them the money to keep hiring these US auto workers.

2). Hey, if the past 10 year, Big 3 sold so many SUVs and trucks that are so “profitable” (more so than their sorry sedans), why aren’t there any such “high profit” money left in their coffers now to carry themselves through the rainy days? Have Big 3 been lying on their last 10 years’ SEC filings?

==> Verdict, no bailout for them. (and I hate socialistic, UAW-sympathetic demonic democrats!!)

We shouldn’t have bailed out the financial industry either. Our economy has been running on borrowed money and ponsi-schemes for so long that this house of cards is finally falling apart. Well let it fall apart. We aren’t doing ourselves any favors by rewarding bad behavior, and in this case with the financial industry, criminal behavior on a mind-blowing scale.

Who gets overpaid for the work they do, and is laid off and retires at almost full salary? a Greedy CEO and a UAW member. If there is a workers group less deserving of a bailout and less aware of the fantasy they have lived in, i certainly dont know of them

No they don’t need or deserve a bailout. Let them go into chapter 11 and reorganize or be forced to liquidate. It is not like the market for cars in America will disappear so fears about suppliers and workers loosing their jobs is unfounded. If another company can make better or cheaper, or even cars people want then why should we support companies that can’t. Granted there may be a net loss of jobs, but why should auto workers be any different from other industries where people don’t have jobs for life.

I am not for the resue package at all. if the us taxpayers are going to loan them money do it as DIP lenders through a bankcupcy . At that point we as lenders have some say in the operation of the company and the unions.

They need help with restrictions and control of how the money is spent for the sake of the employees only. The other employees who get benefits for 4 years and don’t work need to have this eliminated or get unemployment like everybody else. Last, they don’t need 700 billion; it’s absolutely pathetic that most of this money has gone to help banks and people who make fat salaries and bonuses already. **The homeowners in trouble can’t get a dime! These are the people who need a federal bailout right now!!!!!**

The alarm sounded more than thirty years ago (Credit Ralph Nader). They chose to ignore it and hibernate through all the changes in the technology and people’s taste that has occurred since. Now they want another $34 billion so they can reach for the snooze button once more.

Let the car dealers fail. Is there anyone who hasn’t gotten screwed by a car dealer? They have made big time money by giving little for your trade in, and little off of MSR.

Between the true agenda and ignorance of Congressional oversight and the greed of the auto makers we are in a real fix! Franks and Dodd want to save the unions and the auto execs want to save their own positions first. Letting them fail should bring some good talent to the top and force the unions to wakeup as well.

Wrong question. Your just begging for more emotional arguements and name calling.

Do they deserve a bailout? No. No one does.

Do you believe the consiquenses of no action are worse? Yes

Do they deserve it? No. Is it in our best interest to give it to them? Yes. I feel nothing but contempt for the automakers’ senior leaders for brazenly steering their companies into the abyss. They face the same challenges as other carmakers – their cost structure is lower than the European manufacturers’, in fact. The problem is substandard products that fewer and fewer Americans wants to own. But now isn’t the time to experiment with a market-based sollution. Our normal capital mechanisms aren’t working, and there’s no doubt we’d face a complete collapse of an entire industry. Prop them up, keep the people working, clean house in the executive suite, and find a way to revamp the business so we can have an orderly restructuring and not a fire sale.

No, let them bail themselves out by selling the excess stock they have at rock bottom prices. Why should we bail them out when they still are not taking alternate energy for cars seriously. They will be happy making the same cars and helping the middle eastern countries destroy our economy with high gas prices. It time they were on America’s side!

The collapse of the auto industry in America would have devastating long-term effects for our economy. Why don’t people realize that? I understand why congress doesn’t get it… because they make decisions that keep those who fund them happy. By and large our congresspeople could care less about their consituents. They only care about maintaing their status as politicians, and reaping the monetary benefits of voting however they’re urged by those who put up the $$. Wake up minions! Help your economy by buying American, not Chinese, Japanese, etc. Of course to be able to do that, the American companies need to be in business. In the case of the auto industry, that means bailout. Sad, but true. Now go do your best to help the economy. Consume American!

The “Big 3″ were well on their way to turning their business around. General Motors and Ford had several hot selling cars on the market along with the many concessions the UAW made in the last contract. Then the financial crises hit and put us where we are today.

Why the UAW could not just wake up and face the reality? if it is really a bad time, should they worry about secure these people’s job and keep this industry operate in first place? instead of argue a nonsense couple dollars benefit?

Rosana is right. Have the oil companies bail these guys out, Big Oil and American car companies have been hand in hand for decades, passing favors to each other left and right. A $100 billion bailout from them is a drop in the bucket.

Dorothy in Detroit completely overlooks the fact that the unions have effectively eaten all the meat from the Big 3 and are down to nothing but the bones. There’s nothing left to squeeze so they’re going under. Taking all of you over-paid, legacied UAW folks with them. I do not begrudge you your great compensation packages. You’ve made great money for a long time and didn’t even have to work for it at times. You’ve paid your union dues and the UAW has taken care of you….until now. Now it’s payback time and you’re going to have to learn to take care of yourselves. The UAW is going to kill any bailout and force bankruptcy and the resulting restructuring is going to hurt. Or, they might just kill off one of the Big 3 altogether. Have you no sense at all? Don’t you realize who signs your paycheck? If you bleed that goose long enough it’s going to turn into a turnip. Well, you’ve finally gotten the last drop of blood from your golden goose and the consequences belong to you.

I THINK THE WORKERS NEED TO TAKE A CUT IN PAY. THE UAW PRES WOULD NOT ANSWER A YES OR NO. I AS A UNION MAN TOOK A CUT IN PAY IN COLO. IN 1985 TO SAVE JOBS STATE WIDE .$8.00HR. AND ALL OTHER TRADES TOOK A 40% CUT. TO SAVE THERE JOBS . TIME TO GIVE BACK.

The market cap of Ford is 7.26B
and the market cap of GM is 2.41B

Let’s have congress hire a private equity firm and loan it $10B to take
these companies private, make them profitable, then spin them back
out as a single public company,
with the US Govt. taking 80% of the profit.

Likely this will mean job loss, but
we’d have healthy companies again.

I work at a Ford Dealership as a technician. The UAW needs to get their head straight and stop asking for benefits and pay that the free market can’t support. The big three should have access to loans, which is what this is, not a freebee bailout. Labor issues need to be evaluated, especially with GM, and an outside mediator needs to come in and reset the wages and benefits to something realisitic. The proposal to link benefits and pay to the stock performance of a car manufacturer would be a great way to regulate union requirements against the manufacturers. An outside mediator(s), not linked to the Federal government need to come in and advise the UAW on what is appropriate for them to to demand. Forcing car manufacturers to cut parts quality to cover up for for excessive benefits and wages is what got the industry where it is. Junky arrangements make junky cars.

Forget bankruptcy, I wouldn’t even purchase a car from a company that required a taxpayer bailout loan!

More money, more problems…

This is simple.

The auto industry should not be bailed out. American cars were horrible in the 80s and only made modest improvements in the 90s. There back to being horrible in the 00s. I can’t think of one that I would honestly want to own.

The American car industry is dead. By supplying them our money we would be propping up dead companies – this is just dumb and irresponsible. There is no way for them to survive so why waste the money.

That said, I would let them go chapter 11 and I also understand that there would be a severe outcome. The companies need to vastly restructure and would have that opportunity. They won’t do that if you hand them money. There will just be bonuses due to the execs (no real joke intended).

I might use the money intended to bail them out to deal with the ripple effect.

Its about time that the boys’ clubs that run the boards and executives of public companies is broken up. There is no one person that deserves a multiple million dollar salary + multiple million dollar bonuses. I am willing to bet you could pay top execs 300k to 500k and get at least the same performance. In fact I know it.

We treat some of these execs like they are God (Jack Welsh comes to mind). I don’t see any genius in anything that they do. Most are just lucky because they joined companies during the right economic conditions and then took full credit for their company’s success.

Sorry about this disorganized writing but this is my two cents in 2 minutes.

Thanks,
QwertyGirl

Defeat of the bailout was absolutely the right thing to do. The White House should NOT step in and provide TARP money to the auto industry. They should have never provided it to anyone, but that’s for a different argument. A business that fails to keep up with the market should fail, it’s how the system works. Dumb management should not be rewarded for dumb decisions and lack of vision by receiving billions of our tax dollars so they can continue operating in a way that suddenly will make them profitable. Why should we believe that billions of dollars will rescue the auto industry? It won’t make those in power any smarter than they were before. Let the companies go belly-up, in the long run we will all be better off with the Phoenix rising from the ashes of the collapse of the auto industry. The time has come to pay the Piper.

No way. They made bad decisions over a period of years. Why should the taxpayers bail them out?

The UAW nor the Big 3 tried to “dictate what type of cars the American public would drive”, they built the trucks and SUVs the people wanted to drive.

How irresponsible the UAW is!!!!! Shame on them…. but then look at the executives at the Big 3…. they assummed they could dictate what type of cars the American public would drive and that was a total fiasco. Seems like the American public was a lot smarter than the Execs…. Shame on them, too!. Why should the American public reward stupidity and greed??????? I don’t think so.
Posted By Peg Gravelle: December 12, 2008 3:17 pm

Do I think they deserve it? Hell NO. Do I think they’ll get it? Oh YES.

The problems were VERY obvious long before the financial tsunami hit and they ignored the signs. I have no pity for them when they blame the financial crisis.

If you bail out the car manus, you will be left with an angry America who feels they got a raw deal to keep defunct companies on life support.

If you don’t bail them out, we as Americans will have to deal with angry, bitter, victimized ex-union workers who will probably milk our gov’t for all its worth.

Pick the lesser of two evils. Either way we as taxpayers lose.

If they bail out the car industry I want a free car. After all I paid for it!

I think Wolf Blitzer is one of the best news persons on television, however, I was disappointed in his interview with the UAW President. He needed to pin down the real cost of a UAW worker vs. the real cost of a Honda or Toyota worker. He allowed the Pres. to assert that the “wages” were the same. If what I understand is correct, the UAW worker makes over $70 per hr. when all wages and benefits are included vs. a little over $40 per hr. for Honda or Toyota workers. The Senate was demanding that the Union accept reductions to fall approximately in line with the other non-union workers in order to get the bailout they are seeking. Not an unreasonable request in any reasonable person’s opinion (which clearly excludes any union workers). It looks like the Government will now find another way to bail them out. Once again, the tail wags the dog. The unions have far outlived their usefullness, they are a major part of the problem.

Would we rescue a failing tobacco industry? Why do we even talk about using taxpayers money to help an industry that has been anything but nice to the taxpayer? They made this mess. Let them clean it up. Why not borrow from the very wealthy oil sector?

The senate did the right thing by defeating the bailout vote. America is not a socialist economy, for the government to support failing businesses by bailing them out. In what way is it fair to bail out only the auto industry and not any other industry? The best way to re-organize and make these companies competitive with the other auto companies from the world is for them to file for chapter 11. UAW also has to realize that they are using this economy as an excuse because these 3 so called “Big 3″ have been loss making companies for YEARS. They are just using this economy to beg for money.

I think that the republicants cann’t launder money through the auto industry, like they can with the banks. that’s why the banks get any amount of money they want, no questions asked. they are a bunch of thieves.

Let them fail; too many cars produced that people don’t want by a bloated, myopic company with no vision or commitment to the overall good of this country.

There is an alternative solution, have Exxon Mobil and other oil companies give GM the money

Do they deserve a bailout? NO! I do think they need financial help but as long as the greedy union workers are there I don’t think they deserve a penny. Highly over paid workers making sub standard vehicles. Its funny how foreign automakers in the US are doing just fine.

HECK NO…..THEY DON’T NEED A BAILOUT. ESPECIALLY WHEN THE “BIG CHEESES” FLEW IN ON THEIR PRIVATE JETS. LET THOSE COMPANIES TAKE PAYCUTS AND LAY SOME PEOPLE OFF JUST LIKE ANY OTHER COMPANY DOES. I WOULD GLADLY GIVE UP MY $10.00 HOUR JOB AND WORK FOR $25.00. I WILL TAKE ONE OF THEIR PLACES. GO ON STRICK YOU “GREEDY AUTOMAKERS”….

The question is not whether they deserve a bailout but rather will it do any good? GM is already bannkrupt in the real meaning of the word. Fixing the problems will entail eliminating plants, brands, models, parts and dealers. All of these things involve contracts and all of them will result in fewer employees. The best way to get this done and done quickly is through the bankruptcy court. In that situation, all contracts can be dealt with summarily and the country would not have to put up much cash but rather some guarantees for DIP financing, some additions to the PBGC funds which are already obligated and possibly some guarantees as to warranties.

Don’t give them the money as “Bridge loans” because the companies won’t do the job unless forced by the bankruptcy court.

So many of you say “No” to the bail out. Who did you vote for? Obama has been for the bail out from the get go. Why wait a month and let GM go under? Just go ahead and let them have the money now. That is what Bush just did. I know HE will be glad when he gets out of that thankless mess up there!

file chapter 11 first, then do the bailout – it’s the only way to stop the parasite (UAW) from killing it’s host (the auto industry)

As a countryman living overseas, I can only comment that we Americans are idiots. Regardless of management failures, no foreign country would let their indigenous automobile industry just die. US automakers have never had a level playing field like their foreign rivals thanks to US politics. Another case of ideology over common sense, which is slowly devolving the USA into a second world country. What we really need now are statesmen, not politicians, but on the other hand every democracy deserves what they vote for. And America is getting what they in fact voted for. Could it be we are seeing the end of the American dream due to ideological blinders on this realm of political unpatriots? Toyota and all our foreign competitors must be snickering!

No bailout. Retail workers work harder than these people. There are 12 or 13 car mfrs in N America, why is it that these 3 only need money? Let them fail…survival of the fittest.

Let the system work. Others (Nissan, Toyota, Hyundai) will fill market demand until a bankrupt revived american auto company really competes.

Guys, we are going to have to pay for ALL OF THE BAIL-OUTS!!!! – WITH OUR PAYCHECKS TAXES – and no one is going to bail us out for retirement funds that are up in smoke. Get a clue.

Yes it will hurt. Yes some will be miserable. But they have not been adding the value that they have been getting paid for, and sooner or later things have to balance.

Loaning and extending the date of balance only makes it worse.

They need meaningful restructuring that can only come through chapter 11. Anyone that has followed the car companies, knows they have failed to meet the need of there customer for years.

Don’t buy into the scare tactics they are using to cover there mistakes.

The point no one discusses is the government has no money. Let’s say that again. The government has no money. Only ability to borrow.

Bailout’s have to end sooner or later because no one can bailout the USA when it goes bankrupt. If we don’t JUST SAY NO!

I vote for sooner and Yes it will be painful. But much less painful than dealing with a bankrupt US.

I think the Big 3 and the UAW have had their way for many years. I do believe that some financial assistance should be provided to the Big 3 under the condition that they first go through bankruptcy and total restructering including the elimination of ridiculous salary and compensatory demands from the UAW. They will never survive under current UAW contracts. There should also be new senior management placed at the helm. The arrogant approach that these CEO’s had when asking for tax payer dollars showed their ignorance of the situation they are in and a lack of any humility. It should be an embarrassment to them that they are failing at their jobs. I think it is important to keep the jobs in the automotive supply chain but not without extreme scrutiny.

People will be buying cars, now fewer, eventually again more. Somebody will build those cars, many in the country, so the number of jobs will depend on the number of cars built, not on the number of car companies surviving. The domino effect is not entirely true, if one car company goes under, others will pick up the slack, needing more employees and suppliers. Dislocation for employees – probably, fewer total jobs – no.

“If the government was put in charge of the Sahara Desert there would soon be a shortage of sand” – economist Milton Freedman

Isn’t the USA the pillar of capitalism?

Let the big, fat, lazy, stupid 3 die. You might just be surprised at what rises from the ashes if it is nurtured with authentic American ingenuity.

Do the people who are bragging about their toyota, honda and the rest of the foreign autos that are made here in the US realize what kind of tax breaks and land deals these companies get for putting those plants here? Give GM, Chrysler and Ford those same breaks then. Let’s address the real issue here for everyone, not just the auto industry……HEALTHCARE!! Over and over we are hearing about healthcare costs and how much it costs a company and that companies can’t afford to pay it. Let’s start reigning in the drug companies that wine & dine and charge insurance 90.00 for something that cost them a nickel. This whole country needs an overhaul starting at the Whitehouse.

If the bailout is categorized as a bridge loan, and it is secured, and the public takes precadent over any other lien holders – meaning that if they are eventually forced to liquidate, we recoup first – then yes. Sure, it gives them a line of credit that they would otherwise get in the private sector given normal credit conditions and it grants us extraordinary protections for risking public funds.

But how does any of that sell their cars? Isn’t that the larger issue, and why do we have to bail out all 3? Can’t we pick a horse in this race and back it, like Ford, who is in the best fiscal health to begin with?

This might also be another Regan moment vis a vie the Air Traffic Controllers strike. The union obligations have to be rethought. And before I get attacked for that, you need to know you have the freedom to go get another job just like I do if I do not feel like I am being compensated fairly. Just because you joined a union, doesn’t mean you are legally required to work in that industry.

The union representing the auto workers should be ashamed of themselves. I cannot believe the UAW would balk at the idea of hourly wage concessions. But yet, the President of the UAW appears before Congress with his crying towel begging for a bailout. Enough is enough…..let GM and Chrysler file for bankruptcy.

I don’t think we should punish the people that work for “The Big Three”. And if they go under all of those people will loose their jobs and that will make our economy worse.
We need to help them make changes in the way they create cars and maybe they should have to start making other things that help the earth.

Bail out the big three but make them responsible too.

There has to be a happy middle ground.

Are you kidding me? GK Finance/dealers charged my friend 24% interest to buy a car when interest rates were almost zero. Its unconscionable. The banks charge 29% interest. Tax payers pay these companies to stay afloat to get screwed. All these companies must be dead. The economy will be better off without sick companies trying to screw customers.

I say let GM and Chrysler fall and go BANKRUPT.They have been riding high on the hog for to long.Maybe Toyota and Honda can take over both losers and then we can have quality cars and trucks.We can live without GM and Chrysler cars and trucks since they fall apart anyway!!!

Judging by the UAW’s actions I don’t think they need a bailout. They obviously feel like they are still in a position to make demands, even standing at the edge of a cliff that is crumbling.

I think they should have been bailed out instead of wall street. We are taking 700 Billion dollars and giving it to wall street, those who are already rich and set for life. What we should have done is bailout small and and medium businesses, to help them keep payroll flowing and help people keep jobs. Mismanagement of the $700 Billion dollar bailout is the very reason I was against it. There is a possibility that it could have worked, with no oversight and no regulation it spilled into the hands of the richest. AIG got 80 Billion of it and the not even 48 hours later took senior executives and employees on a half 500,000 dollar gofling trip, leaving hard working americans living paycheck to paycheck struggling for employment.
I would like to see the big three be bailed out, but not unconditionally. I would like to see executives take pay cuts, eliminate bonuses for them, and commit to going green to help mitigate the damage done by our energy policies.
It would also help just a little bit if they didn’t fly private jets to Washington and take limos to Capitol Hill to ask for the money.

Ok, they (the UAW) hold all of us hostage, black-mail us with the economy. That’s the reason they don’t even willing to bring their over-paid salary in-line with the competitor. While all of us face pay cut or layoff?
Fine, we may have to pay the ransom, to bail us out, not to bail them out.
But after the economy recover, hostage released, we need to get even with them by not buying any product made by company associated with UAW and tell all your friends to do so, boycott until they die.
They deserve to go bankrupt anyway.
There are auto industry in other non-union states. I hope someone will start a new American auto company outside of Detroit.

Its not a problem of deserving. It is that the money will go to waste

The UAW is at the core of the problems with the US auto industry. The companies should be forced to reorganize through chapter 11 and become competitive.

No one deserves a bailout. Take responsibility for all your actions. Who ultimately bails everyone out? Mostly, future generations of Americans. Greed, poor decisions, stupidity should not be rewarded. The whole car industry needs to be down-sized because of generations of crappy cars. The fittest will survive in the long run!

They don’t deserve a bailout. They made poor choices for years with their companies, now they need to own up to that. They are companies not invincible entities. Those employees need to go after the executive boards. I’m sorry all these families will not have jobs but it is NOT the responsibility of the American people to make up for it. Everyone has their own problems! If the government bails these companies out they are sending the wrong message to the American people. —-make BAD choices and you will be rewarded.

No way. Chrysler already got a bailout with the private equity purchase. GM, Ford, and Chrysler already received $25,000,000,000 from the government to make more green cards. Use that money. No more. File bankruptcy, let the courts mediate a reworking of the union contracts to something within reason, and move on. People will lose jobs and money on investments. It’s gonna hurt, but it’s the best thing.

I don’t see how we can refuse to bail out the automotive industry and at the same time throw a lifeline of billions of dollars to likes of companies like AIG. At least the automotive industry makes something…all banks and insurance companies do is speculate. $15-$20 billion is a pittance compared to what we’ve given the financial sector and instead of using the TARP money as it was intended they’re hoarding it or using it to finance takeovers of other banks

No, the automakers do not deserve a bail out. I believe the best thing to do is to let these companies go into bankruptcy, reorganize themselves without any unions (as their Japanese counterparts), and become more streamlined, efficient, and worthy of their existence.

No bailout for the Auto’s!
UAW won’t take a haircut, so screw em. UAW just as greedy as the CEO’s. Why can an auto worker earning a lower wage for the import car makers, produce a better reliable and quality car? What happened to Capitalism? Everybody wants a bailout..are we now a Socialist country. We now reward bad decisions by companies and irresponsible consumer spending in America…why do I even bother being responsible. Maybe I can get a bail out, if I start making bad decisions, like buying a house with no money down or buying a house a can’t afford and have a poorly made GM/Chrysler gas guzzling truck parked in my driveway. I sick of all these handouts.

1. Get the unions out of the industry.

2. The whining and doom and gloom prophecies are only an attempt to extort money from the responsible taxpayer only to give it to irresponsible corporate heads & union bosses. Look up how many auto manufacturers have folded in the years past.

3. If anything, make the industry show an effort to help themselves before they’re handed taxpayers money. Demand they reorganize, re-prioritize, and restructure under Ch 11.

Although I believe that the Automakers shouldn’t get anything I know The Whitehouse will release the remainder of the funds to them which were strictly suppose to be allocated to the Banking industry and Housing. The very notion of giving the automakers the money is sickening…

What I would like to know is where does it end??? The only thing that I see is an endless gravy train of money for organizations that are simply saying we need a bailout…

It’s very amusing that it’s our tax revenues going to help these companies out and it really should be put to better use.

People are in debt with collection agencies hunting them down for $200 they owed on a credit card they had 10 years ago…I mean should we get a bailout too??

There have been major airlines that have went into Banckruptsy and operated just fine while they restructured the company and worked things out with their creditors…they did not fold nor did thousands of people lose their jobs. When the airline camer out of Chapter 11 they were more viable then when they went into it…

I believe the entire bailout is nothing more then a scam… If I ran my own business and it went belly up…could I go and ask for a bailout?? The Big 3 seen this coming over a year ago…they were nothing short of arrogant and giving them the money is nothing more then putting a band aid over a gunshot wound…

More then 2 million people have lost their jobs this year alone…I’ve not seen to this day any sense of urgency by the government to do anything to help anyone…we’re still in the same situation we were in yesterday as we will be in tomorrow….

When Obama gets into office the remainder of the 350 billion will be nothing more then pissed away…If you want to stimulate the economy then they should allow us to get all of our money that we paid in taxes as a refund…not have anyone owe any money this year and you’ll see the economy stabalize itself..when we have more money to spend then things will improve.

We’re not going to get out of a recession by building better roads and taking care of our intra-structure

BOO HOO! try farming. Actually I wouldn’t mind the bailout’s so much if: all employees would take a 35% decrease in wages & all benefits. Management, they need to be capped at $100,000 per year. When the bailout is paid w/interest they can go back to whatever.
I get good info on the subject at http://www.osgoodwisdom.com

From top to bottom, no. People making $55 an hour to sweep floors and install windshield wipers, and making $52.50 an hour to stay home – that is a mockery of a market economy. I don’t care what happens to them. The industry needs new leadership and no unions.

Poll the American public and ask how many would approve a Big 3 bailout coming from the $700 billion. I bet you’ll get 80 percent approval.

They are making cars nobody wants, and on top of that, they are paying a large amount of money to make them. They need to declare bankruptcy so they can get out of contracts (read UAW) and lower their overhead to become competitive. UAW refused to concede benifits, and the fact that they will not negotiate in the face of losing their jobs proves that the manufacturers need to declare bankruptcy to force them to renegotiate their contracts.

Sorry! The presentation of my prior comment is bad !! I repeat it here improved !!
———————————–
I am appalled by the perception of a lot a people in the US that they can buy all their needs abroad and do not realize that this, if implemented, would lead the US to the status of an [b]underdevelopped country[/b]. The only country without a minimum of economic patriotism is this one !!

Of course, they do not care that a liquidation of the 3 companies would magnify the already bad recession to a worldwide depression as 1929, and that many of such people would be forced to sell their Japanese car and later stand
in line for soup !

If the 3 big companies are not good (by
the way, many of their cars have today
better or similar good reviews as the imports), then force the unions to yield their previleges, if necessary, nationalize or force them to sell themselvs to rational investors as Buffet or Bill Gates, or any other cure, which would affect shareholders and creditors, but not the country’s potential !!

And to ignorant analysts as Farid Zaharias: There is no “other” auto industry, the Japanese operate pure assembly plants of 95% imported components and 100% Engineering, paying up to $ 8 less salary, a complete absurdum which show the need to get rid of Unions which impose salaries far above the nationwide going and having already contributed to the ruin of the steel and many other main industries

And also get rid of entrepreneurs unable to rein in such Unions !!

Let ‘em die. For years, they made nice profits on SUVs, and ignored the warning signs that consumers were thinking greener. GM ceded the car business to other automakers, and The Big Three ceded the manufacture of environmentally responsible vehicles to Japanese-based automakers. Now it’s time to reap the whirlwind. I understand that the auto industry employs a lot of people, and there are retirees to be concerned with, but why are they deserving of special treatment? The once-mighty steel industry was permitted to die in the U.S., and there was no bailout to save the employees.

The Big Three have failed themselves (and us) for two reasons: management, and the UAW. Management is slow-footed, greedy, and resistant to change. The UAW is an expensive anachronism. Unions were definitely needed at one time, but that time has passed. Millions of American workers are treated fairly without having to belong to a union. The UAW’s byzantine work rules (three workers to do a job that two workers at a non-union plant would do) are expensive and are not necessary for safety or productivity. And the “job bank” is ridiculous! What makes a person that handles a rivet gun or a welder so special that he can’t be laid off, and instead is sent to sit around and play cards with hundreds of his brethren? If Intel or General Electric decides they don’t need as many engineers, they’re out the door and on unemployment. But if you spin a wrench for GM, you are apparently so valuable, that you draw full pay and benefits while warming the bench until (if ever) a new position is found. While the UAW at one time achieved much good, it is now a slovenly beast that insists on outrageous benefits for its members.

Let ‘em die. We can still buy high quality American made vehicles from Toyota, Honda, VW, and other manufacturers.

CEO/s of Big3 should demostrate their concern and should sell their planes and big houses to put that money in the industry to make sure that it can avoid financial problem first then ask for the money from Tax payers

I just finished the initial load in of the Detroit Auto Show. I have done this show for many years and have found it to be life draining. The Unions here are the best example of everything that is wrong with America. The sense of entitlement that many of the laborers have is appaulling. As a vendor we pay nearly 90 dollars an hour for labor that unqualified and untrained to do what they are trying to do. I’m sure that they are perfectly fine in a sky scraper pulling wires through conduit but in this application it is just wrong. I listen to guys talk about how they only work a few weeks a year and remain on unemployment and union support for the rest of the year. When I tell them they should maybe think about a vocation change the response is always the same. Why do that when I can sit at home on unemployment? What happened to an honest days work and a work ethic. Unfortunately the manufacturers will not stand up for fear of repercussions on the assembly lines. Everyone feels that the bail out is the answer but the labor needs to come to its senses. I understand the ripple effect the failure will cause but it can’t work unless the auto makers become more competetive in a global economy. The bailout is simply a bandaid for a dysfunctional industry that needs to be rebuilt top to bottom

I do not approve of the President overruling the considered judgment of the Senate who listened to the losers under oath who had a fair hearing and failed misserably in their words and demeanor to show they deserved a bailout of billions when other solutions thru the Court was available

No. They have had chance after chance to reorganize and slim down their factories. I’ve watched them plead with the government for over three decades and they always get their hand slapped and told to behave. Well, I think it’s time they file for Chapter 11 which will force them to reorganize and become a leaner and hopefully meaner company. Enough of the handouts for Detroit. They didn’t pay attention to the market so is that our fault (the taxpayer). Why should my money be used to pay UAW salaries??? If I lose my job I’m not part of a job bank where I get 90% of my pay and then all of my benefits – ridiculous!

Bankruptcy for auto manufacturers would not only NOT be a calamity, but would be a solution for the industry. It is the only long-term answer for rectifying their poor business decisions, including bloated payroll and benefits budgets in a time of reduced profitability. A bail-out is just so much more co-dependence, which can only prolong the bad behavior.

The union refused to take pay cuts,thats whats wrong with the big three.If the workers care anything about their future they should be more than willing to take pay cuts.That is like telling someone you can save their head if they let you cut off one of their fingers and they say no way you gonna do that.

Only 14 billion??? AIG got $170 BILLION. GM has 2x as many workers in the US as AIG. Over CEO of AIG made an average of $8,359. per HOUR. Compared to the average wage of an auto worker of 20-30/hr.
Republicans still the party of big business, let the little guys suffer!

No , absolutely not!!
Please do not reward several years of mismanagement, arrogance and incompetence with a bailout. I am angry when i think that a portion of this bailout will be used to pay workers who are waiting for a job.
I am angry when i consider that we are bailing out companies that kept on producing gas guzzlers and fought environmental and fuel efficiency laws.
I am angry that we are bailing out these companies who are subsidizing retiree health benefits when there are millions without health insurance.

Thanks to the sensible heads in the Senate who rejected the bailout.

Mr President – please do not cave in to the threats from Detroit, stay firm to your idealogy, your legacy is tarnished anyway to worry about the death of the auto industry on your watch.

No bailout. Let the big 3 and UAW file bankruptcy and solve their own mess. Many of us remember the gas lines of the 1970s! The automakers have had 30 years to build effecient cars and they have shown their arrogance by continuing to make big fuel consuming vehicles.

They should be bailed out. The lack of credit for consumers to buy cars and the economic downturn (unemployed and fear of unemployment), taking more buyers out of the picture is not their fault. Their cars are ranked above Japanees in quality, they are less expensive but the American public is not in the know. Our public thinks it is sophiticated by buying overpriced foreign products. Mercedes and BMW are on top of the most frequent repairlist and parts for the Japanees cars are twice the price. (they need repair and maintainence just like aqnything else) Our car companies missed some ques but created niches of their own in some areas.
Keep them alive, keep our workes alive and keep our economy alive.
Bill Donnelly

The unions and the auto companies have everyone in congress scared that bankruptcy will result in 3 million lost jobs. They want everyone to believe that every single job in the auto industry will go away, including auto workers, suppliers, dealers etc. Not that there would not be a large loss of jobs, but the auto industry will not vanish in bankruptcy, it will just come out smaller, with less employees. This is fear mongering at its worst.

Bail-out the guys that thought the Escalade Hybrid was a good idea? Are you serious?

My understanding is that Toyota sold as many cars as GM. However, Toyota made a ton of money and GM lost tons of money. I get the picture. UAW…
If the big 3 don’t go chapter 11 now and get the UAW to concede to a new contract… then we will be putting more and more of our money into an eventual loser.
Heres an idea, give 90% of the company to the UAW and let them own and run the company. Let them do their own contract for themselves, that should be interesting to see !!!

The only way to compare the hourly cost/vehicle between the U.S. automakers and the rest is to break it down.
Hourly vs. Hourly (U.A.W.)
Salary vs. Salary (Management)
When it takes a lifetime to make a pension and only one or two years in bouneses (it will show you who Cares about the future of the company.)
If you don”t think this will make a differance in your life be careful what you wish for.

Hell NO not without restructure. This idiot up there from the Union saying they are on a level playing field with toyota is in denial, I dont see anyone from toyota demanding our tax payers money

I am definitely not a fan of the union, but the people who say “let them go bankrupt” need to stop drinking their bong water. Do you have even the slightest clue as to how many jobs would be lost from letting them go bankrupt?

No bailouts for anyone. The entire 700 billion should be returned to the taxpayer. People on fixed income and Social Security pensions are suffering, hungry, and trying to stay warm.

Guys,

First off…Chapter 11 isn’t the end of the world…and frankly the UAW seems to be a bit Draconian in their tone with it…at the end of the day they’re more worried about loosing their power if GM files Chapter 11 because then they go bye…bye…frankly I’m tired of having to pay for over-head costs associated with workers benefits/retirees when they can’t give us a car we want. I know family members that have been in unions, and frankly all it does is breed laziness…and ways for people to get over on the system. If you look back in History, you’ll find that Henry Ford filed Bankruptcy a few times before he got it right…well that’s what my MBA course taught me.

Two basic questions I want answered…what will GM do short term to help us get in to a car if we bail them out…who can afford their cars! Has anyone every thought to ask this…we’re willing to continue to sacrifice our children’s-children’s future by printing more money…and will continue to devalue the dollar in a way that we’ll never recover from at a certain point…at the rate we’re going it will end up like the Mexican Peso. Does it not strike you odd that they can take $10K off a car…and not even feel it…that tells me they have been sticking it to us for years and I’m a bit irritated about that! Not only are we paying for it yet again with the bail-out.

Secondly…I’m among many that have a great credit score…but I’m not going to allow the current economic conundrum make me go and buy a car at rates that are not deserving of my rating because others made bad decision and over-extended themselves…so I ask you this…what is the Government/Treasurer and GM and Chrysler willing to do for us….because no one is lending the TARP money in a way to help us out…the working Joes…they’re hording it and punishing us when they should be lending money to especially those of us who pay our bills on time and can still do so to jump start the economy.

If GM, Chrysler drop their prices overnight with this bail out money…then I’ll change my toon…but if they take it and nothing is added to the current incentives then they will never get my support the next go around…because this little taste of money they want now is just the beginning of a bottomless pit…no one wants to buy their cars anymore…we’ve had it with the poor quality and games played at the dealerships.

The dealerships…in all of this…good lord does no one get that they have been instrumental in making things even worse…you can’t go off anything they say. In my opinion…what needs to happen there is a total restructuring…and maybe the better thing would be to let us order our cars over the internet with what we want to get rid of the overhead costs with dealerships…do you see where this all goes…how many businesses hands are in these cars…and who is paying for it…us…where is our breaks….for those of you that have American Made cars…you know how annoyed you are with the trade in value of it…and they want our tax dollars to do what….this is a mess…god help us…

Best of luck to us all….Ed

We need to make a fundamental decision whether America is run by free market consumers or a centrally controlled socialist govt. I get all of the nationalist, socialist, worker-protection appeal about how the govt will the savior of the economy – this isn’t the first time in history when govt increased its influence in society during hard times with this appeal. But until this fall, the American govt served consumers – it focused on economic growth, job creation, and consumer consumption. It invested in our infrastructure, our security, our education, and our healthcare – things which benefit and inspire demand. But suddenly, govts are appealing to workers and corporations, to benefit supply, as if car czars and Treasury regulators — not entrepreneurs, not innovators — are the drivers of consumer income, consumer finance, and consumer prosperity. Is there a single example in history where a country bailed itself out of a downturn instead of innovating and growing out of it?

I don’t have a clue whether $25B will benefit Rick Wagoner or whether the TARP inspires more loans or whether buying mortgages keeps anyone in their homes, but just imagine what giving $2000-$5000 back to every taxpayer in America would do to spurn consumption, spurn investment, and reduce foreclosures – imagine what it’d do to give faith and confidence to Americans that the govt believes in them. Inspire the consumers, don’t bail out the corporations.

It would seem inevitable that the Feds will utilize TARP monies to avoid another catastrophic economic event. So, it would seem that over the weekend the Detroit 3 or at least 2 out of 3 will get their funds to teeter along another few months. Then what happens, as Americans are still not buying anything including cars and Detroit, who already is sizing down production and laying off, will be forced again to seek money. The job losses, increase in foreclosures as a result of increasing auto related jobs will be staggering. No easy answers. So while the Feds will indeed bail out Detroit over the weekend, who is next. I do wonder about other industries most prominently insurance companies who write overpriced premiums to homeowners or health insurance carriers who while raising premiusms each year can not afford to pay out claims. My guess is that one or both will be lining up for bail outs shortly. Not to mention city and state gov’ts who are running low. Still, we wait for the feds to bail out the indvidual homeowner to prevent further meltdown of the home/real estate market.

When I first started work in my industry back in 1980 I was discussing Detroits problem with a truck driver. He told me, “When you are making $15.00 an hour building cars and trying to sell them to people making $7.00 an hour, you will have problems.

Most of the people on this board sound as uninformed as Congress on this industry. Here we are talking about a bridge loan at a fraction of the cost of what we have thrown at the financial companies, who are squandering billions with no restrictions and still no oversight!! Yet we are putting all these restictions on these companies in order to help save some of our needed manufacturing base in this country. No other country in the world would let this happen. This is about politics as usual. I am a Republican and I am very disappointed in my party. We are talking about saving 3 million jobs along with the tax revenue that they generate at a time we can ill afford to lose anymore jobs or revenue. Does there need to be change in the industry, absolutely!! Change there will be I guarantee you. But to let them go into bankruptcy so we the taxpayer can take over the pensions of these workers is a stupid tradeoff.
Wages are not the issue. They are competitive with the Toyota and Honda. It is the legacy costs that are killing them. (The imports don’t provide pensions or retiree health care) That is going to be taken care of when the unon takes over the pension liabilites. New workers start at a faction of what their current counterparts make. What the clueless people in Washington should be concentrating on is the work rules. Just changing the multiple job classifications to one, will allow the companies more flexibility to be more competitive. Simple. These guys will be printing money when the automobile market returns to normal unit volume. Incidentally, I find if revolting that the very people who are denying the loans to the automakers are the very people who were part of why we have these problems in the first place. I am talking about Democrats as well as Republicans. How dare Barney Fudd an Nancy Piloskivich tell anyone how to run their business. Just look at the mess they ahve put us in.

If the union is not willing to compromise and cut wages and benefits then to hell with all of them.

Sorry about all the Bold type in my previous post, I mistook “” for “”.

I don’t need GM. I don’t need a Hummer. I don’t need a GMAC loan to buy a low quality car put together with by union workers who get paid too much with a great health plan whether they work or not. I need a car that gets 50-100 mpg, with minimum pollution, and high quality assembled in the USA.