Talkback: Future of Detroit
How do you think bankruptcies by both Chrysler and GM will affect Detroit and its residents?
The government says this course of action should help the automakers to reemerge stronger and more competitive. Do you think that is possible? Will it hold true for city of Detroit, too?
A reporter could contact you about using your thoughts in an upcoming article on CNNMoney.com.
to LA Pittsburgh
Ooooh listen to the salesboys whine when their ox is gored. It is just a-ok to slam the people who build the cars all day long but hear the cat screech when the salesboys tail is stepped on.
A far larger part any vehicles price is in markup and commissions than in worker wages. That is where we need to aim to get prices under control. Worker wages have been cut massively by outsourcing and two tier wage systems the last 20 years but vehicle prices keep rising. Auto makers say they do not make a profit. Where is the money going?
Just because you were not personally consulted does not mean the dealers were not asked to give input into vehicle designs and features. And 90 percent of the feature bloat IS driven by dealers whining we cannot sell your car because it does not have an electric backside wiper. The dealers have driven the move to the SUVs and more expensive vehicles because of higher markups and higher sales commissions. It is not customer demand. The lower priced import vehicles are selling; It is dealer push to pad commissions.
When it comes to salesboys wages, any I’ve met are more than comfortable. Not in poverty by any means. Salesboys are making much more than minimum wage. To say they are is just as false as the nonsense about auto workers making 90 dollars an hour. And as far as working 12 hour days it depends on what you mean by work. If standing around gossiping and bothering the secretaries is what you call work? Of course lying and cheating people all day long does wear a person down.
GM as been a part of my family for a couple of generations. Both Salary & Hourly. I think blame is not the way to go, although change does need to be applied to everyone today, not just to automobile manufacturing. Blame is too easy, hard work on the other hand is what it is all about. Individual who complain about GM/Ford/Chrysler have no business finding fault on the workers who have dedicated their life to the auto industry. They are hard working individuals that have supported the American Economy for many years. When you have worked on the line for 30+ years, the toll on your body, well many of those complaining do not realize the effect, nor do they want to understand, they just like to complain. The individuals working on the line day after day are hard working people that earned every penny. What has happened is Detroit’s upper management has failed the workers who built the cars as well as their country. We did not have any say in what they were doing, the workers have complained, no one would support the complaints. They failed the USA. This is behind us, we need to get back to manufacturing products that are MADE IN THE USA! This is not just about the auto industry, its about the USA, being productive. We do make good products, and those who continue to complain about the past, they can go back in the past themselves, and quit finding fault. We need to support our country, its industries throughout the USA. Get America back to work! Negativity is damaging everyone, including themselves. Lets support each other and get back to being a strong country!
Mean while, back to the the people with more than a double digit IQ.
For all of you people out there who have been fooled into believing that a national health care system is bad, you should know that the biggest cost to the Detroit Three is legacy health care costs that would disapear.
Health care costs add a minimum $1000.00 per vehicle.
BTW, don’t you just love when people worry about how much a middle class worker is making while they just ignore CEO compensation?
Some people are just born stupid.
To Ralph in Lynchburg:
Are you kidding me???
Why do people like yourself choose to expose your lack of knowledge in a public forum?
Are you determined to embarass your friends and family?
I know of no dealers that were ever consulted on the products that Detroit was about to build.
Can you provide me the names of these dealers and sales people who were consulted?
“High markups”??
You must watch Faux Noise and listen to Lush the Druggie or maybe you are just a product of Va. home schooling.
The average salesman sells 10 vehicles per month. He / she is paid 25% of the profit, which is usually around $150.00 per unit or about $1500.00 per month or $18,000 per year.
That puts most sale people in the below poverty class.
That is for working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, BEFORE TAXES!!!!
That comes out to $4.80 per hour.
Wait until there are fewer dealerships and no discounts. Then the sales people can start making some real money off of fools like you.
Wait, that will never happen because trailer trash like you will never be able to afford a new car or be able to get credit.
You have brought a whole new meaning to the word “idiot”.
Bankruptcy does not address the uncompetitive wages, and uncompetitive quality of Detroit iron. I’ve owned only four auto’s in forty years because I learned after the first one to buy foreign cars. I’m happy with my 23 year old Toyota because it drives better than a new Detroit car and has more pizazz, and more style at 33 mpg than a 23 mpg gas hog.
Detroit will revive after the entitlement culture dies. Nobody is entitled to more than they are worth to the returns of capital. Jobs will flee Detroit and the union midwest until right to work and world standard wages return. The region is yet in denial. Collapse must continue for another ten years before a competitive work ethic returns. During the interim there won’t be any jobs, and the state cannot afford welfare. Former union employees are unwelcome at any job in the USA. They’ll have to get by mowing lawns, repairing lawn mowers, and competing with Mexicans on the corner for day labor.
As far as the vote about the government and the question.. is the government taking the best response to save Chrysler I was offended and appauled with majority of people saying that the government should do less and Chrysler should fold. What the F#$K is a matter with you people!? Don’t you know that Diamler-Chrysler is with the big three GM and Ford? It has been a great company as far as these reasons… Jeep was the first military vehicle to assist them win wars, Chrysler’s & Dodges van’s are the best sellers and becoming more popular, Dodge dominated in racing competition during the 70’s and made most of the Kings wins happen, the Dodge Ram 3500 dualy won Motor Trends Truck of the Year same as Chrysler’s 300C in 2005. Now they are smart enought to grow and prosper as they merge with Fiat/Alfa-Romeo and expand their business. Now does all that mean they should fold, hell no! So support America and stop driving those ugly piece of S&3T Japanese cars that don’t deserve success over America especially Toyota losers which I just cannot stand! Drive and be proud of America while drive their cars! You should be a shame of yourselves calling yourselves Americans when you drive Japanese cars. Remember we we’re in war with the Japanese so don’t forget it! Dodge, Chrysler, Jeep, Chevorlet, Buick, Hummer, Saturn, Pontiac, Cadillac,Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, other American makes, and in this case European cars only. After all who doesn’t like Ferrari’s, Lambo’s, Mercedes-Benz, and Porshe?
Yours Truly,
Jammin Joe McCracken
Charlie from Liverpool New York, that comment is the best on the page. It is too bad it was not right up front where some of the over entitled business grads, marketeers and wannabe financiers could read it and take it to heart.
citigroup was the financial advisor for GM selling the hummer brand? what kind of idiot would allow that? am i alone in believing that a company that needed a 180 billion dollar bailout may not be the best place for advice on business matters?
When government doesn’t govern and business can’t conduct business then the citizens have a right and an obligation to remove the malignancies from society; the cyclic theory of history.
I can not continue to read comment after comment about how over valued a person is because they do not have a MBA. Not everyone’s value can be measured by how much school they attended. Currently only 43% of Americans actually work and pay taxes, everyone else is living off the entitlement programs. This percentage is reducing by 600,000 jobs a week currently.
This elitist attitude is also one of the leading root causes for the economic crisis we have today. Just because you went to college a received an MBA doesn’t entitle you to start somewhere as a vice president making seven figure salaries. I remember the days when in order to be a executive in a business you actually had to know the business first, you started at the bottom and earned your way up, maybe after fifteen or twenty years you would be in consideration of leadership. What is taught in these colleges anyways? If it is being taught it is already a history lesson at best.
What makes America great is the worker themselves. You see it is the people who can learn from doing that open up the new emerging markets. Nothing new is discovered in college text books. It is the worker who has the visibility to improvements in how things can be done, thus reducing cost. In the beginning of the American industrial revolution these workers were called entrepreneurs. The vast majority of extraordinary new business comes from just the average person, the tinkered person who is thinking outside of the box. They invented assembly lines, they pour steel, and they wipe sweat from the brow.
When the landing crafts dropped open on the beaches of Normandy it didn’t matter if you were a college graduate or a 6th grade graduate the fight for the freedom and liberty of this nation was at stake. The fight for our freedom and liberty is again at hand, and we need to rally together as we have always done. We need to respect a person for whom they are, 99% of the time they are honest, hardworking, and looking to improve their lives and the lives of their families.
We need our workers working, they need it to, from hard work comes new opportunity. Just because that person empties the trash in your office doesn’t make them less than human. They have a name; they have family, and by the grace of God there go I.
The fans of “trickle down” economics are reaping what they’ve sown, or at least enabled the ruling class to do. Sucking up to the powerful in hopes of preferential treatment has been put to the lie. You are in competition with Chinese girls now for work. It hasn’t been about cars for a while now – it’s been about money (capital). Blaming labor makes no sense. Did owning stocks replace a living? Did day trading them make you a capitalist? Illusion. These companies did exactly what they were supposed to do – make huge money for preferred shareholders and executives and board members from the elite class via finance and “insider trading” (the sole reason for a stock market). Never mind the line workers – they just need a job. Now if the ENGINEERS had a union (like in Europe), maybe the demands wouldn’t have just been about how many boats, guns or snowmobiles you could buy, but also like hey, we want to design a car that’s acually cool in some way (techy, looks, economy, electric, etc.).
It’s a sad day when the chickens come home to roost; I for one do not feel sorry for GM or the workers who earn a living building, selling and servicing and reselling cars. Now don’t get me wrong, I was born in 1953 in the Midwest where the car was crowned king long before I arrived. I’ve owned my share of Fords, Pontiacs, and Buicks all made in the good-ol USA.
With that out of the way, the American car manufactures have raped and pillaged all of us for many, many years. Remember after World War II when GM and Firestone conspired to buy up all of the trolley-car lines across the country, scrapped them so they could sell buses and tires.
We’ve been on the train to bankruptcy and rune every since….! Theirs been so much money $$$$ to be made building, selling, and servicing cars and of course lets not forget it was GM who coined the phase “Planned Obsolescence” so the whole process was the self perpetual machine, as long as we had oil/gasoline to burn.
So, I don’t blame the unions, or the poor management, I blame all of us for letting this machine go on so long…..! Hello the chickens have finally come home to roost.
It’s time for a CHANGE …..!
to Leslie Altamar
The terminated dealers had EVERYTHING to do with this. They had input into vehicle designs and the bloat of options. Their markups are far, far too high especially considering that all they did was distribute the vehicle. The dealers and salestrash are parasites who add NO value to the vehicle. It is common knowledge that car salesboys are consistent liars and cheats who will do anything immoral or unethical to make a sale. All liability has been pushed off to the manufacturers. All responsibility for meeting federal standards has been pushed onto the manufacturers. It is also well known that a MUCH bigger portion of the cost of a new vehicle is in the markup and commisions than in the wages and salaries of the good people who design and build the vehicle. All the cost of a used vehicle go to these leaches; none of it to the people who built it. The dealer markup and commissions for the remaining dealers MUST be reduced by 40 to 60 percent in line with the attack on worker wages.
Detroit or the Big 3 deserve this, not the workers. Coporations have been selling off American made products to other countries for years. I love the comments on the arriving ships of our American cars coming from India and other countries to be sold here.
Long live the Unions.
Down with Coporate Whores.
First and foremost, the failure of GM was a major setback to most of Americans and of course to the city of Detroit. This once proud company is no longer as we get 60% stake of the company. I just feel bad for Detroit which will no longer be Motor city as it once was. I think the city will emerge to something great however; if only the people can help build better cars and start rolling again. Its definitely the end of an era and can never be the same.
SEE WHAT AMERICAN’S REALLY THINK GO TO:
http://WWW.PETITION2CONGRESS.com
THE TERMINATED DEALERSHIP DID NOTHING TO CREATE THESE PROBLEMS AND LOSE THEIR EMPLOYEES AND THEIR LIFELONG DREAMS!!!
What I’m guessing what’ll happen is 1 day after the last factory closes and the last American worker gets fired; The boat will sail in and start unloading the cars being imported from India where GM is doing pretty well. (Go figure)
What you’re seeing now is the “fake handwringing” so when all is said and and, they president and GM can say we did everything we could.
I’m turning very much against this President, I think he’s in league with industry so much GWB would blush.
I LOVE THESE PEOPLE SAYING THAT THE BIG THREE HAS FAILED. Um excuse me, I love Ford, and I would like o point out they have had an increase in Market Share. Their cars and trucks are getting better, And I feel They will be the model for auto companies in the near future. Also Everyone is talking about why GM isn’t doing well… well first off like to point out when you don’t own your financeing arm, its harder to give credit, also when you screw and lie to your customers, well the dealers anyway what do you expect to happen? I Prey Muller Chevy is going out of Business, selling my father a GM CERTIFIED USED SUV. Well it had 73,000 miles so it wasn’t really certified. and then it failed inspection and they didn’t want to fix the problems.
Also everyone is thinking the US will fall, not likely, if anything this will all drive the dollar lower, meaning that we in turn screw all the nations that we owe debt to, or that use our dollar as reserves. And I will tell you what, I go to bed happy as can be at night thinking that the oil countries are loseing money as we get worse! I say let the economy tank, let our dollar be worthless… the middle class will be in the same position, only we will have a who bunch of snobby used to be rich people working with us at the local supermarket, and the welfare people would have to get jobs! Our debt would be worth nothin, and we would be so much more attractive to corperations…. cause you know we will still spend whatever we have… only now they will be able to afford to hire people in this country… bring on the greatest depression ever… Im ready for it! Got my seeds, water, have a whole bunch of tools, and yadeeedaaa. So lets do it!
Unless the UAW caves in and gives GM enough concessions to level the playing field with the likes of Toyota, GM will never make a profit, no matter how many taxpayer billions are given to it.
Unless there is new management and a new philosophy about the product, and managing innovatively, and creatively, with a sense of who their customers are; nothing will change,,,same oold ideas, engineers, entitlement mentality, and design by committee….turn out Pontiac Aztecs, and clunky transmissions, and “soft hybrids”, that do nothing but costs more….
The end is delayed but not denied…
I am a life long Detroiter. We are used to having the rest of the country sneer at us, hate us, revile us, ignore us. But it is extraordinarily painful to see the odium the rest of the country has for roughly 2% of Americans, i.e., the 5 Million or so people who live and work in Southeastern Michigan, the expendable ones no one cares about.
Keep laughing fools. Your gluteus maximus is next.
So-called Americans ignored the Buy American Movement for 30 plus years, opting for status rather than the interests of their own country. No, the cars were not that bad and your neighbors and friends made them. Didn’t that count at all? If not, your self-absortion will be your undoing.
What, exactly, do you think the Germans and Japanese will ever do for us, except take our wealth away from us? If you think we are entitled to their loyalty for saving their countries from tyranny or from economic collapse in WWII, think again, as they laugh at us as morons who would sell out their brothers and neighbors without remorse,, as Americans have done for 30 years.
They live for the “get even” moment that is now unfolding. Americans have proven to be whining, self-satisfied, terminally selfish and the Japs and the Krauts are dancing for joy at our comeuppance. Do you get it yet? YOU, you damned fools, paid your hard earned money to have those who hate us kill us for our own generosity.
Every time we are humbled, Japan, France and Germany celebrate. They have contributed to our demise and the Americans who are “useful idiots” (to paraphrase Lenin) who gleefully buy their products are stupid beyond reason as they harm our country as precious dollars flood out of the Country they purport to love.
When Japan put up stifling import duties, undercut prevailing prices in Japan to lower costs in the United States to harm us, when the Germans insisted in talks that trade ratio must always be in their favor, the bleating American consumers nevertheless figured that they liked having a domestic auto market in the abstract, but it was not perceived in the national interest to actually support the American product.
Keep smiling fools. You are next.
GM and Chrysler should throw in the towel. The most masterful CEO could not overcome the public perception that Americans have of their cars. Even in the best case scenario, where the union dissolved and GM and Chrysler suddenly made quality cars at a reasonable price, it would take years to reverse the public opinion and the American public doesn’t have the patience to wait that long, especially when it is being funded by $$$ out of our wallets.
If you look at the total compensation (wages + benefits) of experienced UAW workers, they belong to the upper 10% of American society. These guys aren’t middle class, they’re actually upper middle class or upper class. And most are just high school graduates, no college degrees and especially no advanced degrees. And they make low quality cars.
So, tell me, what happens when a company pays low skilled, low educated people to do low quality work then pays them some of the highest total compensation in the world?
Unfortuantely this has been coming to the Big 3 and Detroit for a number of years.
My father was a ‘Ford’ and ‘GM’ purchaser all his life. I followed suit with a new GMC Van, a used Ford Pinto and finally a brand new 1980 Ford Thunderbird. They were all junk vehicles with never ending problems and high costs of maintenance.
After these three experiences I have yet to return to a Big Three showroom and have since happily owned European brands to this day with much fewer problems.
Experience on ‘both sides of the fence’ working as a union member and as a management member showed me that basically union members are overpaid -in both real wages and benefits, are underskilled and generally lack a perspective (mostly because of peer pressure) which allows union members to act in favor or on behalf of the company they work for. This over time degenerates into worker/management distrust and obstinance that is counter-productive and the end result is lost jobs and lost companies.
Having said this, it is not a case of the unions entirely at fault simply because we continue to have a very high cost of living infrastructure in the U.S., ie: Health Care costs, Consumer Costs, higher taxes such as property, state, federal, local, gasoline and on and on it goes. This causes unions to fight for generous and unearned concessions – usually with a gun to management’s head. Couple this with a consumer attitude in the U.S. that we must have everything and must have it right now, we are now a debtor nation perhaps beyond repair for the foreseeable future.
I’m sad to say that the American middle class will now have to adjust to a lower standard of living, a lower dollar and we will be a nation no longer leading the world in a standard of living, but a nation that will have to once again earn it’s future. We only have ourselves to blame.
The comments I have seen here look fanatical, & anti-american. People who feel workers should not be allowed to make decent money evidentally forgot what the American dream is all about. & all you folks who talk about not buying American products need to stay off the meth. If you think paying unemployment & welfare is cheaper than paying someone to work, you need to go back to school. I’ve got more news for you: Every worker who loses his job stops buying products, probably products from where you work. When your business goes down, you may be out of work too. Then the states don’t have any money & the schools, post offices, & other government jobs close & those people lose jobs too. Then they can’t pay their bills either, & the electric company, banks & other public services go out of business & there isn’t much left for you to do even if you managed to make a lot of money during this time, because the parks, post office, library, & rec centers are all closed. If you don’t think that’s true, take a drive through Michigan.
If you don’t want to buy American, tell us who you are so we can quit buying from your company as well. Anyone who would rather buy foreign can go & move to those foreign countries while there at it. But the winers wouldn’t do that because those countries have inhumane living conditions founded on cheap labor. Here’s an idea: Any company that wants to move out of the US is welcome to as long as the owners move to the other country with their company.
The economy & auto nose-dive started w/ $4 gas & I’ll bet that didn’t help many other workers either. & what was the comment about black mayors? Who cares what race they are? I thought men were created equal & judged on what they did & not what they looked like. I guess the melting pot America was built on no longer applies either. $60 an hr? Let’s see, that includes insurance, FICA, & matching social security payments for employers as well as vacation days? Most line-workers were making $25-$30 an hour, about $50,000 a yr. That’s not getting rich. If you are going to use a statistic, try to figure out what it means first.
Everyone seems to have a finger to point, so what is the reason for the other thousand companies going bankrupt? Maybe it’s time to quit complaining & start doing something to help out.
GM you mean mexico, they moved alot of american jobs over the border and they want us to buy their protuct, Buy American that means to never buy from GM again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They lay off american workers to keep the price down I can not help it if GM cant handle the union and pay too much for a hout wage. GM will pay for this and it allready is. My father worked for GM for 37 yrs I am glad he is not alive to see this disrespect for the american worker….. Never buy from GM again
Let’s get one thing straight. Outside of the auto industry and the rust of Southeast Michigan, the State of Michigan remains a spectacularly beautiful place. People will always go there for the most ancient reason people have ever gone anywhere: water.
I was born in Detroit in 1952. I lived in the suburbs all my life until a year ago. I had to leave Michigan to find work.
There are so many factors involved in this tragedy called Detroit. The automotive troubles (or rebounds) won’t change that city much. It’s initial downfall was aided mostly by Coleman Young alienating so many people, who fled the city and took most of its economy with them. Then there was Kwame. The politics in the City government and the school district are just embarrassing. The good people of the City of Detroit have gotten exactly what they voted for in the past. Maybe Dave Bing can do better, at least he’s a businessman. (The Red Wings help a lot, but only for a little while.)
For the City and the State both, they have utterly failed to DIVERSIFY since the first big warning signs of the 80’s.
I’ve worked with big companies and small. It is the sheer arrogance found in the big companies that is their own undoing. The Big 3 are the worst. They’ve shown complete and utter failure to understand who their competition is, and what it takes to compete. They completely failed to learn their lessons on that in the ’80s. They failed to learn that they had to CONSISTENTLY EXCEED the foreign car companies on quality, and they failed to properly market the successes they did enjoy, where the hearts and minds of the buying public needed to be changed.
I believe unions are a form of communism. They served their purpose once upon a time, and created a great middle class. But they’ve been just as greedy as the big bosses (and the New York bankers who created this credit crisis as the last straw for our economy,) and priced themselves right out of a job.
Greed is one of the seven deadly sins for a reason.
First of all I know my previous comments seem rather harsh but I do love this state. There is no other place in the world that posesses 3200 miles of freshwater coastline and harbors 20% of the worlds freshwater reserves. We take this for granted. The state is beautiful. But I am also a realist. I have little compassion for those who choose to maitain the destiny of destruction that Detroit has done. When people are too ingnorant to realize that your mayor apparently is a thief and then you re-elect him, then you deserve what you get.
People in this state are resilient and unique. We work hard and we play hard. The structual changes that needed to happen in Michigan were present long ago. This should not be a surprise. We have elected people of late that were not progressive enough to realize this and chose not to develop business outside of the auto industry and promote policies that will attract new companies. Other states have. That is why the new auto industry in this country is down south. Believe me they are not paying those guys $10.00 an hour. They are actually paying them more than the Big 3 wages but the UAW won’t advertise that fact. My point is that the benefits and work rules has killed the Big 3. Michigan fell asleep and became complacent and became uncompetitive, now instead of a transition it has become a matter of our survival. Other cities and areas have lost much of the same size of industry and have reinvented themselves. Pittsburgh is a prime example with the steel industry. That is what we must do. Forget about the auto industry. It will never be where it once was and its survival is still questionable. Get over it and use what we do have to further ourselves. One thing we have is resources both natural and knowledge based (lots of engineers) that people will covet in the future. We need to elect people that will nuture this and promote business interests that will fill in these gaps using what we have. Building 3 casinos in your downtown and having people spend money that is going to Las Vegas instead of their own community is not the way to re-inventing yourself. Detroit will eventually realize that it is going to be about as effective as the notion that government spending is going to create jobs. You are simply just taking money out of one persons pocket and giving it to another until the money runs out. Very little is created. Its just a temporary gig that is destined to go away in the end. It is the encouragement of investment by the private sector that creates jobs. Although government politicians often use the word “invest” in their retoric remember that the government only “spends”. When you invest you get payed back for your risk. Show me what we got back for the government investing 100 billion in the auto industry. How about the 800 billion in TARP? How about the 1 trillion in TALF? If you don’t know what these things are then find out. They are going to cost you plenty when the bill comes due.
I grew up in one of the nicer suburbs of Detroit, but the surrounding suburbs were mostly comprised of auto workers. My husband and children moved to California during the early 80’s because the auto industry was failing at that time. My husband didn’t work in the auto industry, but worked for a company that supplied the industry for products used in research. The first thing the industry did was cut down on research and we had no way to make a living. When auto companies fail, it isn’t just the auto workers who suffer, everyone suffers, especially in an automobile city like Detroit. The person who talked about the auto companies bringing in unskilled labor and paying them a lot of money was correct. When I was growing up, little subdivisions went up all over the Detroit area, and the houses were occupied by auto workers and their families. With the crash of the industry in the early 80’s most of these subdivisions became ghost towns, with the families moving to some other location where companies were hiring unskilled labor. I actually met quite a few of them in California and also here in Houston, as they had escaped Detroit to either move closer to family or to find something else to do to earn a living. I don’t doubt that this will happen again, and I can’t see Detroit surviving this one.
5 years from now , we will be praising the turnaround of General Motors and possibly Chrysler. We may be lamenting Ford.Hopefully not… As a General Motors fan who has a 1979 Pontiac Firebird Formula with 5 thousand original miles in his garage can attest, it is hard to see this happen to GM. However, without bankruptcy and the streamlining, debt reduction, and future shock culture change to the union workers and non union staff management at GM (and Chrysler) there would have been a continued march on its path to irrelevancy. You cannot continue to produce 4 great cars and 26 mediocre to bad cars in different car brands, keep thinking you still own 50% of the market, build cars that customers do not need or want in comparison to the global competition. You could do that 40 yrs ago when GM ,Ford and Chrysler owned 80%-90% of the domestic market. Not today!!Free from debt, crushing legacy costs and hopefully new global thinking, GM, Ford and Chrysler will have the design, freedom , cost advantage and innovative American thinking that will bring them back…good luck and Godspeed…you can do it…from mgrillo1102
It’s going to be a domino effect to the economy like the housing market, less wages, lost jobs, lost business to the Mom and Pop stores, hello deeper recession. What I can’t understand is why congressional salaries are at $174,000.00 a year, Auto workers took a cut in pay due to the companies being in trouble, why aren’t our Congress and Senators doing the same? After all isn’t our National debt nearing 11.8 trillion?
Big 3 come to Asia. We demand only $10 a day for our cheap labor!
Sarcastic though.
I visit Thailand last year and met a low rank hotrod mechanic. He said he got paid $10 a day period! No health care no pension.
Reading all the comments is interesting. I feel the root of the problem is that the Big3 were built on a market share of 90%, and now they have about 50%. Well, it takes big money to tool the plants, labor cost included. And legacy cost, way less people paying for lots of retirees, and the new foreign owned plants do not have these retiree cost because they are relatively new. This happened to Steel, Airlines, and other older established companies when new competition moves in. (You will notice that Union Government workers are not being hard hit- they don’t have competition) Also, the Union and the Big3 were way to slow to adapt to the new reality of competiton. I do believe they realize the new world now, as evidenced by numerous Quality Reports where US companies are competitive with the best, especially Ford.
Who remembers Amtrak from 40 years ago?
Amtrak still needs the government’s (our money)to survive. What was the reason back then for the takeover?: creating an efficient mass transit service through a partial nationalization of the rail system. How’s that working out? By the way, the expectation of Amtrak in 1970 was that they would make a profit in 5 years. Sounds like what they are trying to force feed us today.
Let face it, the economy in Detroit will be destroyed, but dont look at the Auto makers or the government to care. Hey it is big business and was a win-win for GM looks as if now they will be able to break the union, and more then likely be able to buy out or even stop paying long time retirees. So with all this being said yes they will come out way ahead, the market thinks so up 200+ point, bankrupcy did not knock it down. Now Chrysler on the other hand has been living a long death, should have died years ago, but where is Ioccoa when you need him. But anyhow there will be light at the end of that rainbow too, when other companies snach up the pieces.
General Motors Alert::::
This is required reading for all Management and Engineering personnel of General Motors!!!
Are you listening??????? Has America had enough and made their point????????
IMPROVE QUALITY/GET RID OF THE UNION/MAKE PAY REASONABLE VS COMPLEXITY
response to Posted By Chris, Eagan, MN: June 1, 2009 3:25 pm
Just so funny…. people in glass houses should not throw stones. Your response speaks for itself.
As a Michigan resident and the child of a GM family, I have lived the UAW life, the GM life, and the Michigan life for several decades, so I have so many thoughts on this issue that it would be impossible to state them all here. I will try to settle for just a couple.
I agree with everyone who has said there is enough blame in this situation for everyone to get a share. It is impossible that anyone is blameless, and equally impossible to assign percentages of blame to different persons or groups. Also, circumstance and unrelated, outside factors have contributed. If any of you are psychic, it would’ve been nice if you would have predicted that this person or that group — or this or that circumstance — would’ve led to the downfall of the world’s biggest company so that we could’ve avoided the heartbreak this is causing to an awful lot of people. And, trust me, if there’s anything we know in Michigan right now, it’s heartbreak.
Second, I don’t understand why “UAW” has become synonymous with “Satan.” Are there lazy UAW members who took advantage of the system to serve their own ends? Certainly. Does anyone know any lazy doctors, lawyers, engineers, politicians, etc., who take advantage of the sysstem to serve their own ends? Yeah, I thought so. My father was a UAW employee and is now a retiree. He often worked seven days per week, frequently 12 hours per day, in a factory he abhorred, hardly ever seeing us kids except to sing “Hi-ho, hi-ho, it’s off to work I go!” to us when we got off the school bus and passed him in the driveway on his way to work. He did this because it allowed us to have a roof over our heads and food in our tummies, and a decently comfortable life. It allowed my parents to save so that my sister and I could go to college and wouldn’t have to work in a godforsaken factory for 12 hours a day, seven days a week for our entire lives. He never missed work, and he never complained. This was the face of my father. This was the face of most of my friends’ fathers, and some of their mothers. This is the face of UAW workers, people. Human, just like you. Not Satan. And not responsible for all that ills GM or our economy.
The PHD blaming the auto collapse or even a part of it on accounting standards needs a reality check. Fact is cash is cash and GM (and all the big 3) were burning through tons of it. Yes some of there losses incurred over the past few years are accounting transactions, but this has nothing to do with why they failed (every company records these types of transactions whether they report under IFRS or US GAAP). They failed because of bad bets and bad decisions plain and simple. Some of those are union, some are product, some are marketing…..etc. Basically there is no one single reason, but attributing it to accounting standards is misguided.
America is bankcrupt as a Nation. You look at the youth and it is a big disappointment.
It is only immigrants that are running the country. Look at all the schools, the ones that have Asians are doing good. Most colleges have foriegners for higher studies. Once they graduate there is no effort to retain them, it is so difficult to get a green card that it is better to return back to home country. Specially for Chineese and Indians.
Next we look at the manufactiing base and find that first it was moved to Mexico and now to China.
Next we look at the service industry, slowly it is being moved to India.
We are left with making weapons and some heavy industrial equipments.
I have to agree that the overpaid, overbenefitted unions had a large part in the Big 3 meltdowns… I also think that the inability to hang with the makers of smaller vehicles plays a big part… The CEO’s of these automakers didn’t change with the times until the times changed them… Now we all have to eat crow and it doesn’t taste very good… Now, the next big problem will be the oil companies running low on stockpiles, rising prices until the economy can’t support them, then asking the government to tax or tariff OPEC until they shun our business too…
Grow Up America, Rome fell too…
I enjoy reading all of the comments here they are very enlighting , But Gm, and Chrysler workers before this all happened made up 8-10% of the total vehicals cost. Instead of blaming the U A W for what they make maybe we should wonder where the other 80% went???? I believe if you have an education Master or bachlor degree You should be making at least 65,ooo a year and if your not than I am sorry. This whole mess started with management and got worse by the housing collapse and got worse when the banks stopped lending to everyone.
In Essance Management failed and wallstreet screwed everyone – we all have our opinions rightfully so; But to blame the U A W is just wrong and immoral alot of us UAW workers work very hard in extrem Heat and long hours doing what most of you wouldn’t do so until you go into a GM or Chrysler Facilty and do Our work for 6 months to a year – Just remember there are a lot of us that bust our butts everyday that we go in.
Thank You
Proud UAW MEMBER 1268 – God Bless all of YOU even if you hate the UAW
Michael
Detroit will never recover. I am an expert diver and seaman and went to Michigan to try and start a marine salvage/tow business. There were few places in Detroit where a white man can go, no one in the City seemed interested in helping me start a business. I don’t need help, I am a lawyer, but every time I submitted an application some low-level city employee would send me a letter (try getting a human on the phone there) and there were more fees, studies, etc. I just up and left. The unions, incompetent city leadership, and the Big 3’s unwillingness to think about the best interest of the American consumer = no recovery. Add to that an arrogant governor who spends more time worshiping Obama and criticizing Palin than she does trying to bring industry to her state . . . will the last person to leave MI please turn off the lights.
The outcomes will affect GM/Chrysler/Detroit obviously negatively. We’ll see even more drops in housing prices, school closings, government jobs lost, government programs cut, and higher unemployment. But hopefully, once this restructuring is done, we’ll be at the bottom and be ready to look up.
Now the good news is that GM will make money with a 10 million a year unit pace, and there will be pent up demand that will allow all automakers to make money.
And for all those people who think domestic vehicles don’t last, I have a 2001 grand prix (150k miles and still going strong), an Ion (100k and still perfect) and a Buick Rondezvous (40k) and couldn’t be happier.
So don’t just believe the people that say the foreign’s are better than the domestics. Do your research. I did and couldn’t be happier!
Perhaps we should base our economy on Casinos and Porn, they seem to be growth industries.
BTW I don’t know why some people think that a “high standard of living” for skilled workers is a bad thing, as evidenced in some of the comments below. I notice they never complain that the top makes too much by bribing govt officials to shape policy in their favor, against the middle class.
I have bought many GM cars in my life time before buying Asian cars. Now I feel stupid for waisting my money on GM cars. And now I get to lose more money on GM by keeping the junk car maker in business. Why can GM not be allowed to fail like the hundreds of other car makers before them?
Didn’t we spend $20 billion taxpayer dollars to avoid a GM bankruptcy? So essentially this money bought GM time to negotiate with the UAW? Where is my say in all of this?! Why is the government bailing out these companies? JUST STOP! It’s unfortunate that my grandchildren (I’m 26) are going to have to pay for the sins of GM.
Unfortunately the Bankruptcies are too little too late.
Fiat has no skin in the game and is looking for a free opportuntity for a marketing channel in the US. I expect Chrysler to be back in bankruptcy in 24 months.
GM may survive, but as such a small player (7% to 8% markt share)it will not matter. GM’s only way out of the problem is to under sell its competitors and still make a reasonable profit. Unfortunately the UAW will not allow it, so it will be a slow death.
This is Chrysler’s second time around. Despite them being called loans back then, and the fact they paid it back. Without it they would have had to file. MB discovered that Chrysler was bringing down their company and if memory serves, they sold it at a loss just to rid of it. GM will back in court protection in 5-10 years from now. There is a history of failed government bailouts/bakruptcy/ownership of auto manufacturers overseas, why would this be any different?
Detroit has been in trouble for decades. It imported hoards of un-skilled laborers for the auto plants and the UAW managed to win them a ridiculously high standard of living. Add to the mix incompetent black mayors like Coleman Young and Kwame Kilpatrick who drove white business out of downtown. The entitlement attitude of UAW members finally killed the golden goose. The topping on the cake was the big 3’s inability to make a quality vehicle at a competitive price. Detroit and many other Michigan cities will become ghost towns because of this massive failure. And the big 3 don’t deserve a second chance. If they were capable of making a profit they would have done it by now. I for one will never buy an American engineered vehcile.
Honda and Toyota factories in Canada are not unionized and the employees are paid much less then GM factories.)(GM average was insanely at the average of over 60 dollars us)
Also, GM factories in Canada will not close. Thank you Obama!
It is exceedingly difficult to face the fact that it is time we hit the reset button on our pinball economy.
You can tell the Union cronies posting here all over. The one about being serf’s especially made me laugh. The union is one of the biggest problems in this whole mess. They made sense when we did not have labor laws and minimum wages, but anymore they just add another layer of difficulty in getting work done. Their demands have been unreasonable and they basically hold companies hostage. The unions are bringing us closer to socialism by trying to make everyone’s wages nearly the same. Put unions in all workforces? Give me a break…people need an incentive to work harder and strive for better. Take that away and no one has a reason to go the extra mile… Thanks for screwing this one up UAW..
A lot of folks here say the UAW isn’t too blame and I agree to a point. Management has their part in it too.
However, and this may be an isolated incident, but back in the 80’s my dad had a buick with a rattle in the front end. Several trips to the dealer found nothing UNTIL they took off the front quarter panel and found a BEER bottle inside. UAW people assembled the car so its likely a UAW member put the beer bottle there.
I quit driving Big 3 cars in the early 90s after I had a Chrysler, Ford, and GM and all had issues under 100K.
Then we bought a Nissan and Toyota and drove both for over 10 years. So while I would like to buy American, I have found for my money, that the Toyota and Nissan have proven far more reliable. Why would I want to switch back at this point. Even if the big 3 are producing similar vehicle with similar quality and reliability, their actions of the past have forced many to not consider their products again. This has ultimately been their demise.
Chrysler and GM are tarnished, Ford is at least holding its own. Given how the government works, I am far less likely to buy either a GM or Chrysler now if given the choice.
American Auto Manufacturers did this to themselves years ago. Union and management combined. Their inferior quality and reliability of years past has reduced their market share considerably. People switched to Toyota, Honda, and Nissan for a reason and aren’t switching back.
Unless the auto industry gets their costs under control and manufactures a vehicle that
1. Costs less than their foreign competitors
2. Has the same or better quality that their foreign competitors
3. Is more fuel efficient than its foreign competitors
4. Maintains the HP and size that Americans want.
They will NEVER recover.
The UAW needs to wake up too and make some realistic changes to their contract. Set wages accordingly to what is common across the industry, Union and Non Union. Quit protecting the weak while letting good workers go based on seniority. Give up some of the freakish benefits that no other sector gets.
If they can bring labor costs down, then the car prices can come down and make them more attractive to Americans again.
My personal opinion on this matter, as I grew up in a car factory town, is that the problem isn’t as simple as an overpaid union workforce
The problem is extremely complex and is indicative of years of mis-management by the company as a whole.
Problem 1 – Extremely bloated middle-management staffing. There are managers of managers and directors of directors all through the American Automobile Industry. This is overhead that is not only unnecessary, but adds to the cost of production per vehicle. Streamlining management by itself will not cure the ills of the industry though. There are union related issues coming.
Issue 2. Union Healthcare benefits. The union continues to pay healthcare to 522,000 retires and their families/survivors. This was agreed to by the Big Three’s management and now with an aging workforce and the associated healthcare costs, the cost of healthcare benefits alone per vehicle manufactured hovers around $1500.
Issue 3 – The Job Bank – Again, a failure by the negotiating team for the Big Three to allow the creation of an entity that continues to pay non-working, non-retired individuals at near full base pay rate.
Issue 4 – Specialization – This is a problem that rests solely on the union and which has contributed to labor costs exceeding those of foreign manufacturers. For many years, and to some extent even today, union employees were prohibited from completing job functions outside of their assignment. If your job was to place parts in a bin, that is what you did. You didn’t move an empty bin into the work area and you didn’t remove a full bin from your work area. You simply filled the bin and then waited for someone to perform the two other functions.
I personally feel that the unions have helped to limit these companies abilities to produce a quality product at a pricepoint competitive with the foreign manufacturers. The unions were established initially to improve employee work conditions, which isn’t necessary now thanks to government intervention (OSHA). Unions have failed to keep up with the times, which would have benefited them and the companies for which they work.
Now you have towns, like my hometown, which are virtually ghost towns because the union leaders and upper management in the companies failed to see that they were losing ground to foreign manufacturers with a higher quality product. In essence, our Big Three failed the American people by not listening to us. It may take years for the bad taste in our mouths to clear from the decades of substandard quality equipment from these companies.
I proudly own a Ford Escape, but also proudly own a Honda Accord, mainly because none of the Big 3 make a car that is better at that price point.
GM’s problem is that most of the cars that they make people do not want to buy, from the cheep plactic to the uncomfortable seats and the odd placement for controls. It seems that for every car they try to re-invent the wheel and sometimes it works and most of the time it does not.
The bankruptcy will change Detroit…hopefully for the better. However, of more critical importance is the impact on our country concerning the way this bankruptcy has been engineered by the federal government. We have seen such a huge power grab by this administration, fully endorsed by Congress and the Supreme Court, that we should all fear for the future of Capitalism. When our government has the power to dictate a company’s CEO, take a 60% share of the company and begin to make business decisions for that company, we are dangerously close to (if not already into) socialism. We are in an era where the government has already decided it is smarter than everybody else, and therefore has the right (by eminent domain?) to take whatever action they want, regardless of what the “free” company wants to do. We Americans are sitting idly by and watching our freedoms being taken away. I pray to God we wake up as a nation before it’s too late to take our country back.
3 points need to be made.
The union waited 20 years too long to accept a 2-tiered wage system.
For too long, GM used marketing to push sales and not the Japanese’s best quality tool – Design for Manufacturabilty. It is the approach that researches meticulously in advance what/how to maufacture cars, not simply packaging a lot of bells and whistles in a slick ad campaingn.
Finally, we will rebound as today’s reality is drivenhome; we will only receive the wages that we compete for in the global marketplace.
Americans and Canadians should feel ashamed of themselves! When I watch NASCAR or team sports on TV, during the American Anthem I see Americans so patriotic; but they don’t buy American!! I’ve owned nothing but American form a current Chev Suburban and Cobalt to numerous Chevy vans and Chevrolet cars. I never have problems and I have enjoyed all my cars (40 years worth!). The problem to me is a perception problem. The press and all media have been negative to what Detroit builds. I say we need to look at import rules and make them fail for all countries making automobiles. There are too many models being produced and competing against each other. Funny how we never had these problems during the 1950’s 60’s and 70’s! If you can sell a car in America, we can sell a call in Korea or Japan!
As a bankruptcy attorney, the purpose of Chapter 11 Bankruptcy is to have the debtor company shed the obligations that it doesn’t need to move forward and to keep or affirm the obligations that are vital to the company’s operations. With proper bankruptcy oversight and effective business leadership in the future, there is no reason why GM and/or Chrysler should not be able to emerge from bankruptcy as a strong(er) company and be competitive. However, what these companies will look like emerging from bankruptcy is where the real intrigue in this story is.
The wages that the UAW has demanded for these jobs not only has caused the company to charge more for their vehicles, thus selling less, but also has caused the value of a Higher Education to lower.
A father that works at a GM plant will have a son, and when that son turns 18 will have a nice job at GM. While those parents that see the value of a higher education, will pay the tuition for college. Why would a parent do that? Why would you take yourself or your child into debt with student loans when they can have a well paid job at GM that requires just a High School diploma?
I think the jobs should pay less, they should pay what a job that requires LITTLE education should pay. We need to raise the value of the Higher Education system making it something to strive to achieve AGAIN in this country. While the UAW is not the only factor to the de-valuing of our higher education system, it is a major contributor.
In addition, people are demanding more for less when it comes to automobiles, and the forgein companies are willing to provide it.
I forgot the most important detail of this whole mess. SCRAP FREETRADE AGGREEMENTS! Maybe if things had to be built in US and Canada instead of allowing cars to be built in low wage countries like Mexico we would be in good shape today.
In my opinion GM deserves to go down. No bailouts, not a penny should go to them. They had an electric car, the batteries and scrapped and sold away the tech to oil companies to keep it from being developed. Also have you ever been through an auto plants employee parking area, how many different makes and models do you see there. If you work for GM, Ford, and Chrysler you should drive there cars with all the employee buying programs. If you don’t maybe they should fire all the employees driving forein cars. Maybe supporting the company you work for would have made a difference
I grew up in southeastern Michigan, living there about half my life, so it pains me to see what my old home state is going through.
I grew up in southeastern Michigan, living there about half my life, so it pains me to see what my old home state is going through.
I hope that the bankruptcy reorganization helps, but I am not optimistic. The management and the rank-and-file have always pursued their own self-interests. They became fat and bloated on profits and union contracts, and developed an attitude that they were entitled to these rewards. But the free-market system gives the rewards to those who are the best able to provide what the markets need and want. And the U.S. auto industry cannot do that without substantial organizational and philosophical changes. What Michigan (and Detroit) needs to do is get rid of its entitlement mentality and cut its dependence on the automobile industry. It needs to look to new industries to fill the void and be very aggressive on attracting the business of the future.
I don’t know what to say about Detroit … It is in serious need of urban renewal. It never recovered from the race riots in 1967 and the resulting “white flight” to suburbia that sucked capital and jobs out of the city. The slow and steady death of the auto industry in Michigan over the past 3 decades has led to further decay. With the unemployment rate in Detroit at 22%, there is little economic blood left in the city’s veins. What life that remains is fading under the unrelenting scourge of rampant crime in the city. Until jobs return, there is little chance of substantial improvement.
I think you will see Union free auto manufacturers, or you will not see US auto manufacturers. If Honda can employ workers without unions then GM and Chrysler can do the same. I myself worked in the steel industry in Pittsburgh and got laid off with 30,000 other workers. I think you will see the same thing here. You will no longer see exorbitant wages in any heavy industry, as there are too many worldwide competitors who will work cheaply.
I need to make this statement to all who think our quality matches foriegn quality. I owned a brand new Cadillac STS for $58,000. The pride of US engineering and the Fleet Car of the U.S.
Unfortunately, this new Fleet Car was in the shop every other month and I am not lying about this disaster. I even made the comment that “This is America’s Fleet Car, your kidding right??? I will never own another Cadillac period!!!! If this is the best that GM and America has to offer, we are in deep “kimche”
GM’s problem is not the unions, or high wages; it’s plain and simple not taking care of the customer and giving value for the money.
After my 3rd new lemon from GM, I FINALLY stopped buying their junk.
Now it’s amusing to see them spend millions advertising to get me to buy their products when all they had to do was take care of me when I was buying a new car from them every other year or so.
Since my ‘91 Suburban that I kept less than a year due to water leaks, electrical problems and other issues, I have either bought or caused others to buy 25 cars/trucks OTHER than GM.
I suspect my experience was not unique. Let this be a lesson to us all! Take care of your customer; that’s why I drive Toyotas.
Response to : Posted By David U. Detroit MI: June 1, 2009 2:46 pm
You are demonstrating your great union education. There is a definition difference between the use of the words “Then” and “Than”. Please UAW don’t destroy the English language too.
Highest paid car management. Highest paid car employees. Product quality? Average to less than average..sounds like the Dallas Cowboys season…so, all you Cowboy fans, do you want a repeat of last year?
I see alot of talk about what is the problem but no solutions, mthat is the real problem not just in detroit burt the US as a whole. I was on the frontline of both for the US in Iraq and fro the last 14 yrs of my life at GM.If you never been on either frontline you would not understand the problem and that the 1st step to fixing any problem is 1st to identify the problem, then focus on solution to the problem(s). Most of the people complaining fail to realize without the UAW there would have not been a middle class it sure was not management who want to pay a hosnest day wage for a honest day of work.That’s how it was when my grandfather worked for GM ,by the way he died at age 52 from lungand hart failure from welding stainless steel with a iron ore weld gun ,the practice has been outlawed for those evact reason. but back to my point yes the UAW like any other bog organzation has its problem,but that what you get from agreedy capitalistic credit crazed society. I would ask anyone of the many post do your trade assc. provide daycare,a fitness center,tution,health care,training,and wage protection these are just the major program all $53/monthand these benifits are for all worker in a plant wetherthey are part of the union. so fro all you complainer do you have a better solution ,and if you do why not apply for job with the govt,GM, or the unioun
I dont think anyone cares what happens to Detroit and its people. Were supposed to care for victims of wild fires in california, hurricane victims in new orleans and the orange crop in florida but when detroit needs help our bretheren in the other states says screw michigan, let them fail. Nice support from our fellow americans. Why the abiding hatred for detroit, the auto industry and michigan?????
The last, emphasis on last, GM vehicle I had was in the shop 37 times with electrical problems. All the parts changed had been, are you ready for this, made in Mexico. Why “Buy American” when all the parts are from outside. The Toyota that replaced it has never been in the shop. Detroit treated the consumer lack crap and now it has come back to haunt them. The sad fact is now taxpayer money is propping up the management that decided to go down the route of the heck with the consumer. Cheers GM!
The question about Detroit is a complex issue, and it depends on whether you are talking about Metro Detroit Area or the City of Detroit proper.
The city of Detroit has many problems, and in reality does not have many auto jobs in comparison with the surrounding communities, therefore the Detroit Metro area will be hurt far worse than the city alone.
The sad fact is even with Chrysler and GM surviving, these will be much different companies, with far fewer jobs. Further as someone who has lived through this before when the Steel Mills closed in Youngstown, Oh, my real concern is what comes next. Property values will continue to fall in the area as the younger generations will pack up and leave, looking for jobs, by 2020 Metro Detroit will look like a ghost town in comparison to now.
‘Remember all you non working auto workers, we don’t make the parts,we assemble the cars. Quality is always good when your supplier wants your business but its hard to keep track of quality issues when you use thousands of suppliers.’
cac in Michigan has just confirmed one of my deepest suspicions: The quality of the parts is more of a problem then the final assembly. My 2005 Trailblazer had the following parts go bad just after the 36K warranty went out: fan clutch and water pump (38K), idler pulley (41K), and thermostat (50K). The dealer offered to replace the water pump for $500; I said thanks but no thanks and replaced all of the defective parts myself. If I was less handy I would have shelled out over $1500 for parts/labor instead of $300 in parts and my own sweat equity. How can anyone afford this repair, on top of the 30K I shelled out for the car (would have been more if not for GM employee discount) and its less than four years old? Needless to say my wife is driving a loaded 2009 Honda Pilot after we traded the Trailblazer in. Oh and the final price we got was less than what we paid for the inferior Trailblazer four years ago. Everyone I have talked to has had no complaints with the Pilot.
I also have a 2004 Silverado 2500HD, which I love and have no problems with. Perhaps the parts are better since its a Heavy-Duty truck, I don’t know. I may buy a Chevy truck in the future, preferrably after the government gets out of GM. I’ve been a hardcore domestic buyer for years but no more. GM needs to commit to making a great car people will actually buy with dependable, quality parts or they will be no more.
A general sadness and sense of loss will descend on Detroit residents. The Motor City was, once upon a time, a symbol of American industrial might.
Like the near default of New York City in the 1970’s, the swagger will be lost for a while. I suspect it will return — New York’s did until the recent downturn — but it will take some time.
I think that most would agree that unions are useful as a counter force to business excesses. However, when the government takes on that role and then unions continue to push for ever better pay, benefits, and protections, the balance gets lost. If we were isolated and never traded with anyone else, that would just mean that prices would go up and eventually few could afford cars. However, since we DO trade with everyone it, instead, means that we simply price ourselves out of the market for similar quality products.
If government/unions don’t realize that and allow the markets to work, then the U.S. auto industry will be finished.
What is the common denominator among the failed US based auto’s? UAW!
Everyone says Ford’s in good shape but we can’t forget Ford borrowed nearly $25 billion a few years ago. Ford has to service and repay that debt so we can’t assume that Ford’s long-term success is assured. All 3 of these companies have essentially failed. Ford’s going to be put in a competitive disadvantage going forward as GM and Chrysler shed debt and burdens through Chapter-11. Ford isn’t doing that…so, they have to execute the old fashion way….service and pay the debt. This will clearly impact Fords future product investments, cash flow, jobs, etc….
The UAW is the common factor among them all. The UAW blames management…but come on….all 3 just happened to have bad management. The UAW also blames NAFTA or Trade in general. Other auto companies in the US have to compete in the same environment. Sure, they’ve been hit also with the slower sales and it’s impacted their profitability. However, they aren’t seeking government bailouts or borrowing $25 billion to stay alive.
The UAW keeps saying “we’ve made concessions”….and they have made some token concessions like getting rid of the Job Banks. The problem is getting rid of them moving forward doesn’t do much good when the last 20 years of bloated benefits is what crippled these companies….it’s too late!
It’s not just the benefits but the outlandish Job Classifications. Again, the UAW has made concessions on Job Classifications, but again, it’s too late! Most people don’t understand the bloated classifications. It forces a company to hire more people. This sounds great in theory, more jobs! However, this isn’t an efficient form of job creation. It’s not based on demand or voluntary compliance due to positive economic conditions…it’s forced through the UAW’s desire to create more jobs just for the sake of dues.
The UAW keeps on saying “we just want to make a fair wage” it’s their party line to try and gain sympathy. They don’t state how they had free health care (both current and retired workers), they did next to nothing for days since there wasn’t a need for their job classification for those days, and will only submit suggestions if they get paid to do it, etc….they don’t tell you these points…we have to be paid to make the company better.
When anyone looks back at these companies and says why??? There’s only one common denominator, the UAW!
It nice to find somewhere where the blame for GM’s failure is being place correctly.
I worked for GM (salaried) from 2000-2005. I do not remember a single quarter where the automotive side fo the business made any money. For those 5 years, GM was a house loan company that lost money building cars. Of course, that didn’t stop the UAW from continuing to make demands for their under performing workforce (example – workers could not be expected to do anything on a break to include going to the bathroom, getting coffee, eating a meal or cleaning up personal trash so they had a “pre-break” and “post-break” to accomplish these tasks when I worked in Pontiac).
I find it interesting that the Retiree Health Care benefits in the UAW are still protected and the biggest debt of the “old” GM. Why isn’t this being discarded with the dealers and the bond holders? I’m sure it has nothing to do with the Union’s pull with the current administration. Normally contracts that a company cannot afford are the first things vacated by a court.
Ultimately, the “new” GM will fail just like the old if the UAW continues to demand over-price wages for an under-delivering work force.
As an aside, I actually worked most of my time in an IUE assembly plant (the only one in GM). Interestingly, that union was fairly proactive in keeping their wage and work rules structure competitive eventhough they were building one of GM’s biggest money makers.
Some of you say that the southern non union plants are more efficient and have better workers than the union plants. I have worked trying to help southern non union plants get up to speed. Don’t make me laugh. The ONLY reason for going south is to break the unions and the ONLY reason for breaking the unions is to cut wages. The southern workforce has a much worse work ethic than any union or non union plant I have worked in the North.
Work absenteeism is commonplace in those so called hard working non union plants which would lead to firings in the Union plants. Even with union protection, management has the right to fire for non performance, it just has to be documented and for a real reason; not some supervisors bad hair day. And we do not even want to talk about skills. Problems which are routinely fixed with no fuss in union plants become major shutdowns in the southland. Nice, easy going people, all of them, but I would not depend on them to get the job done.
Sorry folks it is not the unions causing these problems. Managers have been paid multi millions for their great skills in running these companies and the profit they bring. Come again, the companies are mismanaged and there is no profit yet they still reap their chunk off the top.
Time to give credit where it is due. When these companies became financial institutions, depending on their credit business, rather than building products it was the beginning of the end. As far as being a service economy, Johny Carson once said he was from a rural area so he understood what the term “service” meant. If you do not understand, ask a farmer.
It is time to impose the same percentage cutbacks on dealers and salesboys which have been imposed on the UAW. Cut sales commision percentages in half and dealer margins by 40 to 60 percent just like the UAW has been forced to do. Get those boys down to 14 dollars per hour too. There is less skill in selling cars than turning a wrench. Less integrity too.
There is plenty of blame to go around with both management and labor. What people are really missing is the true end result. Close profitable dealers to restrict retail supply which in any recovery will increase retail sales price. Then tack on some “carbon” tax on fuel/energy to raise the price of ownership and push people into “mass” transit. By wiping out the smaller suppliers in rural America they will be able to push even more people into the urban environment. It is not about making GM a better car company it is about making GM and PC car company which people will not be able to afford.
….and now we have the ultimate…Government Motors. First it was $ 20B, now another $30B and you won’t hear it anymore as it is a Fed run business. BUT: you can rest assured it will be far more than $ 30B about every six months. The current “bailout” efforts are nothing more than the rich jumping ship and grabbing all that can be taken before the final plunge. Soon the value of the paper dollar will be worthless, the middle class will be extincted and we will be right back where we were before the Revolutionary War.
The UAW, GM, Chrysler and all of the “autoworks” are nothing more than a set of ridiculous notions played out on the middle class for the benefit
of a very few. Unbridled capitalism has ruled out completely over democracy. Most unfortunate.
We loved them. We trusted them. We were proud of them. We “saw the USA in our Chevrolet” and other brands like they asked us to, and they betrayed us.
They betrayed us by selling us low quality, technologically obsolute, and somethimes just plain dangerous automobiles. Then they spent huge amounts of money convincing us that it was the best that could be had. And it worked. It worked for a long time, until the Japenese came along and said “Look what you could be getting for your money!” The scales fell from our eyes and we never looked back.
Anyone remember the Tucker? It was inovative and The big three killed it to prevent the competition. Wonder where we would be today if Preston Tucker had been given a fair chance.
No, it is not. The corporations are going to reemerge “stronger and more competitive,” but it is going to do that by offshoring, where they can even further exploit workers than they can in the US. That’s not going to get the Detroit workforce back on its feet, or that of any other major automaking city. They’ll be left to dwell in poverty.
And, will people stop laying blame on UAW for this? Unions don’t fight for people who screw in bolts to be paid $40/hour. Unions fight for living wages, health benefits, retirement pensions, and other basic benefits workers need. Workers not being guaranteed these benefits is pure exploitation.
Blame should lie entirely on the shoulders of the automakers.
Let me get this straight. GM’s leaders design cars that people don’t want, yet some folks on this site blame the fiasco on the UAW? Please write more and tell us about all the shiftless clerks and secretaries who sent Lehman Bros., Merrill Lynch, Wachovia et al. into a tailspin.
The United Auto Workers aren’t totally to blame for this fiasco but certainly bear a certain amoint of responsibility for some of it.
A family member of mine is a school teacher with a Master’s degree. She brings home $42,000 a year only after having several years of experience.
A UAW member–installing tires on an assembly line can bring home close to 60K a year just starting out.
And the job bank–still getting paid whether working or not–you’re kidding right?
The UAW was long admired for their generous wages and benefits but the money has to come from somewhere and it shows in the obscene prices we’re expected to pay for a new car.
I’m all for bankruptcy if it brings new-car prices down.
Paying what the market will bear for a new-tire installer is sound advice. My local tire shop doesn’t pay 60K.
So, U.A.W. get over it! Times change. Go out and find anothr job like the rest of us because these plants–and your jobs–are gone and they aren’t coming back!
To all those people refusing to ever buy a automobile manufactured by union “parasites” I suppose that means you’ll never buy a Toyota, Honda, Nissan (All make cars manufactured in plants unionized by the Confederation of Japan Automobile Workers’ Unions and sold in the USA) Mercedes, BMW, Volkswagen (made by workers belonging to the IG Metall Union) Hundai and Kia (made in factories with unionized KCLU workers)
and for all the cars they make in the USA in non union factories, the engines and parts they import are union made. Oh and if you didn’t already know, Unionized German and Japanese Autoworkers get paid more then american UAW workers.
Chew on that for a while and guess who is to blame for the plight Chrysler and GM are in. The Germans and Japanese can make good quality cars with a unionized workforce that is paid more then UAW workers earn. Sounds like a management problem to me
Detroit’s and America’s problems started in 1913, and more recently- When the CEO’S figured they could make more $$ by outsourcing jobs to the lowest cost country- (some 30 years ago) Welcome NAFTA, WTO
http://www.economyincrisis.org/
The only problems is, when everybody jumped on the bandwagon, There will be nobody at home (USA) with any MONEY to buy their products-
The real problem is doctors and the Medical/Pharmicutical industry.
If they hadn’t figured out how to keep people alive after heart attacks and strokes, there wouldn’t be such a burden on our retirement and healthcare systems. Then the retirement costs for people no longer working a day job wouldn’t be sucking up so many resources, and that money could be put to work on innovation and people working still.
Ooh, that’s not Politically Correct? How about the rule of thumb our Great-Great grandparents had when they came to the country – as long as you’re physically able, you should continue to produce and provide, and then you take care of your own parents when they can’t take care of themselves anymore…
(Now they’re trying to beat cancer too? There goes the rest of our $)
“How come the other auto workers, the ones working for Honda, Toyota, etc. are doing just fine without this union bs?”
Again, Honda/Toyota/etc. treat their employees the way they do to avoid unionization. In essence, the threat from the UAW is what created the working conditions for these non-union workers. The working conditions at the foreign automakers’ plants certainly aren’t a result of sheer social responsibility.
The large US auto makers failed to build quality cars that American people wanted to buy. I have purchased 3 new Ford Explorers in the last several years. I will only drive them until they reach 30-35,000 miles. In my experience this is when the major problems occur. I do not buy GM any longer, because the problems start much sooner with their brand of cars. I am in the market for a new car now, and it looks like it will not be an “American” made car this time.
Plenty of blame to go around for the end of an American icon. Certainly, the combination of UAW influence and management ineptitude are the main causes for this bankrupcy. It is not entirely management’s fault, they were typically “held hostage” by a clever UAW tactic – pick only ONE of the big 3, then threaten to shut them down with a strike during Union contract negotiations. When business was good, none of the big 3 was willing to risk losing business by being struck by the Union while the other 2 were doing “business as usual”. Ultimately, it was the short-term vision of both management and the UAW that drove GM to bankrupcy. A sad end to a once-proud company name…as for Detroit, this is the nail in the coffin. Already a distressed downtown area & high unemployment – Now, you won’t be able to give away property in the city.
Will Detroit make a comeback? As me again in 2025. It will take at least that long for Detroit to turn around and (is it possible?) prosper.
Same thing that the steelworkers union did to Pittsburg – priced themselves out of business with their high salaries and benefits. CAW workers did not contribute one cent to their own pensions unlike most civil servants and private industry workers do, at least here in Canada. Much of the fault lies with GM management but most of the blame lies with the union.
I agree with the person asking for a big truck, SUV, mini-van that gets 40 or more MPG. I do not want a small car. They may be good for driving around town or to work but when I am traveling, I need space. Build my 40 MPG SUV.
I find the rich irony both humerus and gut wrenching. The question “why did the big three build the large SUV?” Well my answer goes back to my own co-workers who ribbed me about buying a fuel eff. Chev. Cobalt. Gas hit $4 and I was laughing. By the way foreign fans my cars worth rose $2,500 above what I paid in less than 6 mos. So the answer is not that the Big 3 forced anyone to purchase the SUV’s; it was the ONLY “Macho” vehicle to drive if you lived in any respectable neighbor hood – you the ones where you also needed Int only to live.
As for the question; I wouldn’t worry about Detroit, I would in fact worry about this being the very beginning of the recession. The ones telling you we are nearly out of it also told you the housing crisis would be a “soft” landing.
My grandparents advised not to spent a penny more for “4 wheels that will get you from A-B” as you may need that money some day. Keep spending more on the foreign and believe you are doing yourself a favor – I will have a roof and food when it gets really bad and you can eat your foreign (de)vestment.
When a Union (or something similar) isn’t present a company rarely pays anything close to a Fair wage that allows a family to live the american dream. Its not a bit based on a Fair Salary determined by education, experience, etc… I have been salary all my professional live as an engineer and know this to be true.
The erosion of Unions in the work place is the Main cause of the drop in the average American living standard relative to inflation.
GM and the American economy will only get back to being a benefit to the average American when:
1) unions or similar organization are spread through most of the work force. ( hourly and salary)
2) The rich (that top 5% with 95% the wealth) have their taxed hiked greatly ( at least 15% higher from now). Then that cash is redistributed through out the economy to benefit the average man (salary or hourly).
Pure capitalism without Unions => average man = serf/slave & and a decimated economy as this crisis has shown.
I just read some of the comments, and I would like to put in my 2 cents.
The issue is very complicated and what I ultimately came to conclusion with is as follow:
1. UAW is a PART of the problem. In my opinion it is biggest catalyst of this bankruptcy. Looking out for workers rights and liberty is one thing, but having NO accountability for sub-par work-effort and terrible quality control products(only recently addressed) helped triggered this disaster.
2. Management. How does one explain that because of management’s greed the UAW was established to reign them in so that ordinary folks can enjoy some of the returns. Then there is short-sightedness. Hoping that the average America would buy a new car every few years, again and again – as opposed to the foreign-car policies which was designed for decades reliability and quality – was a foolish model plan.
The UAW is a double edge sword. On the one hand it’s there to aid the ordinary workers from abuses from Management, but on the other, not a fall-back to laziness, incompetence and a way to security when you didn’t work to get there (no education, skills, etc). The American dream wasn’t build on laziness.
Management’s greed and incompetence is not to be overlooked. How do you let them pass when the trend was for smaller cars with great gas mileage. Investing (decades earlier) into alternative fuel. Designing the cars that is attractive, fun and evolving – and not the same stale clunky that it’s associate with. Don’t tell me that people still want these SUV and trucks and large cars… if American still want them, THEN GMC WOULDN’T BE IN THIS MESS WOULD THEY?
The recession, the global economy and everything else happening in recent years thus far is a factor, but just these two factors alone was enough to topple the mighty empire after decades-long inattention.
I’ve found several of these comments to be quite interesting. I would very much like to see some statistics, or reputable sources to backup the abundant claims that quality and reliability of the big 3 (most notably GM on this day) are vastly inferior to that of other automakers. Continually citing cases such as, “I’ve had forging car X for X years and have never had a problem with it” just don’t cut it. For each of these I would venture to guess there can be someone who can make the claim “I’ve had my American car X for X years and have never had a problem with it.” These are unsubstantiated isolated claims.
I’ve done my research from several reputable sources, all the writers and reviewers have come to the conclusion that American cars (i.e. the Big 3) are on par with the quality and reliably of foreign cars, in fact in many cases, they surpass the quality and reliability of foreign cars. So the real question I have is how/why do people think that the Big 3 have quality and reliably issues? Assuming that you own a car, and took the time to be an informed buyer during the shopping process, I do not understand how you’ve come to the conclusion that America cars (i.e. the big 3) are lacking in quality and reliability. Perhaps, that is where the real problem lies, with the buyers who are unable, or unwilling to do the research and make informed decisions, but rather fall victim to unsubstantiated claims, so much so that they see them as the unequivocal truth.
That is the biggest place where foreign automakers truly have succeeded and where the Big 3 have failed. Its all about image, foreign automakers have been able to create a very positive image (which I applaud their sales and marketing departments for), while the Big 3 have failed miserably in this area.
Face it, the auto industry will never be the same again. Michigan has needed to diversify itself and should have done so years ago. We need to look at this as a wake up call and look to reorganize our state. Michigan would be a prime location for alternative energies. It is my belief these jobs will replace many of the displaced workers. The world is changing we need to stop fighting it and focus on how to capitalize on it.
We were the typical “buy American” family until none of my last three cars made it past 70k miles before catastrophic failure. It eventually became a “shame on me”. We now have 2 Infiniti’s and couldn’t be more satisfied.
While I do feel for those that are dependent or trapped by the industry, all of the years of union leadership, waste and a refusal to adapt to change doomed Detroit long ago. And to think government welfare will help is laughable.
Sad, but it looks like I’ll be “owning” some American cars after all…
Thanks UAW, for the death of an icon.
So who in their right mind is going to buy from a company owned not only by the UAW, but also owned by the government?
We thought GM management was bad, wait till UAW and Government managers take over. Talk about downright, absolute inefficiency. A $25,000 car is going to cost Government Motors $50,000 to make, and guess who’s subsidizing the difference? We are.
Yet mark my words, the government is going to tout that its newly minted Government Motors is on the upswing and is staging a comeback.
why do you CNN always ask most trivial questions? i know, a diversion tactic on behalf of your neo-con masters.
A response to John in NY with no last name:
Let’s see, the Tundra has had recalls on:
1. Prop shaft failures
2. Engine camshaft faliures
3. Front suspension failures
4. Transmission / torque converter issues
5. Tailgates falling off
6. Ball joint faliures.
The list goes on – check it out…
To Stephanie in CT – giving everyone who pays taxes a $500,000 check is idiotic. Do you know simple multiplication? Let’s assume that 100 MILLION people (about 1/3 of the US population) pays taxes and they each get that check. That works out to 100,000,000*500,000 = 50,000,000,000,000 (50 TRILLION dollars).
To all the people that claim domestic cars are on par with Japanese “imports”: Think again. Look at consumer reports, domestic cars are almost always ranked lower than Japanese imports. Every single domestic car my family has owned has given up the ghost before 100k. Five GMs, four Fords – all had such significant problems we had to get rid of them before 100k. The nissan we owned went over 300k before it was totaled in an accident. Past and current toyotas, hondas, and subarus all had/have from 100k to 210k without issues.
Several of my co-workers all bought the same pontiacs within a year or so of each other – only 1 of them kept their car after 40k – the others ditched because of the numerous problems.
And as other’s have said, there is no reason an assembly line worker with a high school degree should be making anywhere near 30+ an hour! I have two degrees (in science/engineering) and my wife is working on a PhD and NEITHER of us make that much. Assembly line work is unskilled labor and should be paid as such.
GM’s demise is not some recent surprise phenomenon nor the result of some democrat or republican political agendas. It is squarely the result of corporate level executives and board member decisions. Decisions they and they alone are responsible and accountable. Decisions such as, what to build, where to build, how to build, how many to make, level of quality, who to market, how to market etc…
Perhaps GM was simply too big for their own good and failed to pay attention to an ever changing global market place; A market where being nimble, flexible and scalable is more important then size.
Leaving the industrial revolution behind might prove the best thing that could ever happen to Detroit.
When will the next UAW bailout be needed, perhaps just before Obama needs their votes to win a second term?
I will have to say that it appears on the face of all this “motor city” stuff, that the Unions are the cause and the downfall of the fall of Detroit. It is absolutely amazing to me why this has not been figured out before now. I truly am sorry for the innocent people who are losing jobs, homes and all they have worked for. I wish this could have been avoided years ago when they fell for this Union B.S.
Detroit is going to get exactly what it deserves. Unfortunately, Obama has already paid off the union bosses for miss-leading them to the voting booth.
Obviously a lot of things went wrong.
Partially, GM and Chrysler management refused to recognize the facts of modern global competition. And, of course, UAW can’t compete in a global marketplace.
Also, government forces and tired brand recognition could no longer protect uninspired, overpriced Detroit products from such global competition.
Hopefully, well-made, excellent values will increasingly dominate all markets.
We shouldn’t support poorly run companies like GM simply because they’re domestic.
I want to respond to all of the GM Engineers and Employees who are saying we Americans don’t know what we are talking about. First you must understand that YOU went BANKRUPT because of your incompetence in the auto industry that has now cost US TAXPAYERS BILLIONS. It appears that it is YOU who don’t know what YOU are talking about or know your jobs to save them. Well don’t worry anymore because John Q. Public now owns you. Second, to all of you smart engineers, there is a very important comodity that you all forgot to build into your cars, yes you know it as “Quality”. Did you genius’ really think that the public is so stupid as to continue to buy your fodder???? Third, ditch the UNIONS they give you the appearance of corruptness and bias political adventures, this one fact probably hurt this company the most. Fourth, stop paying your employees $ 40.00/hr. for turning a bolt when you can hire a monkey to do the same and pay him a banana and pass on the Medical and Dental. You did this to yourselves and now its time to pay the piper, ENJOY!!!!!
Wow, it is amazing to see the disconnect with the current administration and the comments of American workers from industries outside of Detroit.
Unfortunaltey there is no leadership representing the sentiment of many Americans who are tired of risking thier personal capital with no safety net, of losing jobs because of the greed and the lack of effective leadership in our government representives.
We are a government for the many elected by those who took on an active role in the elections. It happens on every level of government. the silent majorities are to tired, to worn down, to concerned with just plain survival to take on those with time and an interest in their agenda’s. Perhaps not an agenda supported by most by an agenda represenative of the politically active.
This “Buy American” slogan is only going to do more harm than good. America has shifted from a manufacturing powerhouse to a service-oriented economy long time ago. The UAW is the one to get blamed for all of this. How come the other auto workers, the ones working for Honda, Toyota, etc. are doing just fine without this union bs? Union is why America is falling behind more and more globally. Union people never ever work efficiently. All they care about are their wages and benefits. And if they don’t do their job right, the Union will bail them out. Now they are hoping the government will bail them out. If GM were able to actually build cars that people would buy, they wouldn’t end up like this in the first place. Now taxpayers are paying for the UAW’s retirement funds and all sorts of bullshit.
My answer to the question asked on this topic:
No, I don’t things will change because the UAW is one of the big problems at GM. The UAW will never accept blame, it’s always someone else or the economy. Just look at some of their comments on this topic.
Congratulations, job well done in writing your own pink slips.
So you ask, “How do I think that these bankruptcies will affect Detroit?”
My thoughts are perhaps best described by Mitch Albom:
“We want to scream, but we don’t scream, because this is not a screaming place, this is a swallow-hard-and-deal-with-it place.”
and,
“We don’t talk about whether Detroit will be fixed but when Detroit will be fixed.”
You might not understand why, but this is the reason I would graduate from college and accept a job at GM as they go bankrupt. I put my head down, swallow the pride I have for my home state, and get to work fixing things. Opinions don’t change things, actions do.
———————
The above Mitch Albom quotes can be found in the Sports Illustrated article: The Courage of Detroit
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/the_bonus/01/07/detroit/index.html
“And yet…
And yet it’s our misery to endure. There’s a little too much glee in the Detroit jokes these days. A little too much flip in the wrist that tosses dirt on our coffins. We hear a Tennessee player tell the media that the Thanksgiving win didn’t mean much because “it was just Detroit.” We hear Jay Leno rip our scandalous former mayor, Kwame Kilpatrick, by saying, “The bad news is, he could be forced out of office. The good news is, any time you get a chance to get out of Detroit, take it.”
We hear Congress tongue-lash our auto executives for not matching the cheaper wages of foreign car companies. We hear South Carolina senator Jim DeMint tell NPR that “the barnacles of unionism” must be destroyed at GM, Ford and Chrysler. Barnacles? Barnacles are parasites without a conscience. Sounds more like politicians to us.
Enough, we want to say. The Lions stink. We know they stink. You don’t have to tell us. Enough. The car business is in trouble. We know it’s in trouble. We drive past the deserted parking lots of empty auto plants every day.
Enough. We don’t need more lofty national newspaper laments on the decay of a Rust Belt city. Or the obligatory network news piece, “Can Detroit Be Saved?” For too long we have been the Place to Go to Chronicle the Ugly. Example: For years, we had a rash of fires the night before Halloween — Devil’s Night. And like clockwork, you could count on TV crews to fly in from out of town in hopes of catching Detroit burning. Whoomf. There we were in flames, on network TV. But when we got the problem under control, when city-sponsored neighborhood programs helped douse it, you never heard about that. The TV crews just shrugged and left.
…
Look, we’re the first to say we’ve got problems. But there’s something disturbing when American reporters keep deliciously recording our demise but nobody wants to do anything about it. We’re not your pity party. You want to chronicle us? We’ve been chronicled enough. As they say when a basketball rolls away at the playground, Yo, little help?
“
I’ve bought three suburbans, two little chevs and one olds….I’m finished, my family is finished with so called domestic companies where everything is out sourced to NAFTA. I’ve now bought two Honda CRVs and never coming back. Clinton/Bush’s support of NAFTA has created this whole thing………We the People and for the People rather than we the Company and for the Company.
I think this is sad but, we reap what we sow. We are Americans and we are sooooo smart so we build cars with average quality in mind and we build a vehicle with an expiration date or fall to peieces date. See that way we dumb Americans can buy the same car again and keep you crooks in business. Also, I would get rid of this UNION CRAP, I don’t like the cost of an undegreed worker getting paid $ 40.00/hr. for turning a bolt on the dash that will fall out 2 months later anyway. Well that O.K. now because “We the People OWN THE MAJORITY OF GM SO I SAY OUT WITH THE UNIONS AND IN WITH LABOR THATS PAID FOR THE REAL JOB PERFORMED. If you are turning a bolt that should pay $ 11.00/HR. I ALSO WOULD LIKE A 33 % RETURN FOR OUR TAX DOLLARS TO KEEP YOU RUNNING.
To the poster struggling to makes end meet with a $110,000 income: The price of a car is not your problem if you can’t make it on $110k per year.
Here are some simple facts about my experience with cars in life. I have owned 3 cars since I was licensed in 1999. My first car was a ‘95 Saturn SL2. The engine seized @ around 140K. Second car was a ‘98 Nissan Maxima. @ 320K (yes 320K) I lost control in a snow storm and wrecked it, it was still as mechanically sound then as it was the day I got it. Car 3 (my present car) is a 95 Nissan Maxima w/ 200K miles (also still going strong). You see even if I have to pay a couple thousand more to get one of those cars I am actually paying a whole lot less per mile driven when you factor in that your American car will die a lot sooner. That is why I refuse to buy American since my first car and will not do so for the foreseeable future.
This bad situation has been made even worse by the government’s attempt to pander to the union and save Democratic votes by throwing billions of taxpayer dollars onto a sinking ship. GM management is to blame on two fronts: Incompentent, short-sighted decisions on what kind of vehicles to produce and caving in to ludicrous union demands for ever-increasing wages and benefits. Paying $30.00-$50.00 an hour to lug nut twisters was inexcusably stupid. Agreeing to onerous work rules not found at competing automakers was dimwitted.
Ultimately, though, this is a manifestation of what happens when unions are allowed to run amok. Those organizations were ostensibly created to make sure workplaces were safe and that employers did not exploit workers by putting them into unsafe conditions, or hire children, etc. Those issues have largely been addressed long ago, and pretty effectively, by legislative action and oversight agencies such as OSHA. What unions have all evolved into, though, and their primary reason for existence at this point, is collective bargaining for wages/benefits. If companies got together and jointly decided what they were going to pay labor, it would properly be labeled as collusion. Unfortunately, political pandering has empowered unions to engage in what is essentially legalized collusion. GM and Chrysler (and more to come) is onr predictable result of that disastrous policy.
The Federal Government is lying again, as it’s done the last 50 years; social security, healthcare, economic recovery (rich only), pension, illegal wars, covert operations to destablize governments who challenge established entrenched wealthy.
It’s only a matter of time before the American middle class learns how much Federal Government duped them. I hope to be out of the country when American middle class wakes up.
It was never the slaries of the UAW it was and is the work rules. The unions have overstretched to make rules to protect the least performing person. Seniority overrules everything from skill to talent to work ethic. The UAW with the fees they collect made more profit than the auto inductry for years. Should have happened din the 70s
The government was a big part of the problem. Having the governemnt run GM will only make things worse.
First, the government did nothing to stop the extortion by UAW.
Then, the government created absurd CAFE laws to force the companies to produce small cars no one wanted instead of just taxing gasoline to create demand for small cars.
Then, the government did nothing to rein in the greedy bankers and mortgage brokers that created this economic mess.
The government’s off-the-books accounting has been losing money for decades, to the tune of $11 trillion dollars, and they think they can balance GM’s books? They wasted Billions of dollars trying to prevent the bankruptcy (which I was against), only to now take an even bigger stake with the bankruptcy that was inevitable from the beginning and wiping out even more shareholder value than otherwise if the government had not interfered.
You can debate this all day, but it comes down to this…the unions killed the auto industry in the USA. The epitome of greed and sloth.
Ask anyone who has contracted from outside at a UAW facility – you’ll find those hard working UAW guys sitting on their cans most of the time, in hiding places all over the plant. Then sitting at the bar that night bragging about how little work they did that day – and have you seen their new boat?
I feel bad for this generation of screwed young GM workers. You can thank dad and grandpa, because they “ate their young”.
Unions like politicians eventually became a victim of any process in which the existence of the entity becomes entwined with the “gifts the provide” and perception that it must always be fighting to gain ground for the constituent.
On the other hand, the car companies lost sight that profits gained at the cost of quality, and innovation – as well as – the belief it was OK to provide large high profit vehicles, using peer pressure and psychology (we all want what our neighbors have, does not matter what size) to justify that we wanted it.
Its funny to see how they are still being protected – instead of the government allowing new players onto the field. The big 3 have always fought to be the only 3 American car companies… where would Tesla be if they got even a 2 billion dollar government loan?
Well, this has been a long time coming. The city itself, though, has been almost empty for a while now. There were 2.5M people there when I was born, 1 million when I escaped/graduated high school, and possibly 650-770k people there now (depends on who’s counting). Sad to say, but today’s announcement hardly even matters on a day-to-day basis to the people who still live there. Well, except for psychological impact, obviously.
I find it interesting that the UAW was not totally shaken off in today’s announcement; I am still looking into the pension obligations as well, retirees make up a huge chunk of Detroit’s actual population. The City itself has had its own issues, and will need to resolve them fast. No one wants to discuss the idea of receivership or a state takeover, but frankly, the State of Michigan is already the city’s largest landowner (right behind Detroit Board of Water)and will likely need to initiate some kind of intervention whether it wants to or not.
Abandoned factories, houses, and neighbourhoods connected by roads with chuckholes the size of a Ford Festiva is a problem larger than the city can solve. The “business as usual” of Michigan politics will not work anymore, as two of the Three are bankrupt and not paying taxes to subsidize the circus. No matter what happens next, the way forward for the city will involve :
1) Greater involvement of the State of Michigan in the day-to-day running of the City, and/or :
2) The State of Michigan assuming some/all of Detroit’s debt, similar to what the State of New York had to do with NYC
3) Reductions in services more drastic than the cuts already being discussed (Detroit has America’s largest police force, believe or not, 4k+ officers spread out across 173 square miles of urban desert… the city government and infrastructure is bloated, in general)
4) Serious tort reforms, to stop the State and Water Board from holding onto to so much property, and to provide faster resolution/liquidation of properties with liens on them. While taxes and water bills have to be paid, the way that has been handled in the past is a definite problem for Detroit. Hell, it has only been within the past 5 or 10 years that the city has even issued a significant number of building permits – that situation has hurt Detroit more than any decision the automakers could ever make.
For the record, I was born and raised in Detroit, left in 1997, and have not been back. Nothing to go back to….
Response to Steve Marriott:
“If Americans did not want big gas guzzling trucks, why did Toyota decide to build 2 truck assembly plants, spenging millions, only to idle the plants?”
So they can show GM & Chrysler how to make better quality truck and take their customers too.
“UAW” – Those 3 letters brought down the U.S. auto industry. I’ll never buy a car from a company that is owned by the government AND union. That’s ludacris!
i worked 30 years for ford motor company, and have seen good and bad choices made by both the uaw and the company…but the straw that broke the camels back was the free trade agreements…this created a free fall effect for the auto companies…jobs were created in mexico,india and china and less and less in the usa.
the cheaper imports were looking more appealing as good paying jobs became less available…it was just a matter of time until this mess became to big to clean up…throw in the wonder boys of wall street and the opec idiots and here we are.
quit blaming the uaw, all we want is fair shake at a decent living…isnt that what everyone is trying to achieve! grow up people!
buy american !
Detroit -
It’s a failed city and it will continue to be a failed city for the foreseeable future.
I’m the ultimate optimist but we are talking reality here. This city has been in decline for 40 years. With people moving out of Detroit and surrounding suburbs it will only get worse.
The corruption in the city, the racism, poverty and school corruption are so deep seated that Detroit’s sealing it’s own destiny every day.
A thriving GM, maybe someday, isn’t going to save Detroit. GM had some good years while it was headquartered in Detroit and nothing has changed. Sure, around GM’s headquarters there’s been some renovation but it’s so isolated and, beyond that small radius, the rest of the city has only gotten worse in recent years.
There is no night life, shopping, or anything lasting that happens in the city (proper). There are events….Theater, Sporting, minor convention….but they are a one shot deal for most. They come to the event and go back to the suburbs. The city doesn’t draw in anyone with anything compelling, fun or interesting. Women don’t feel safe there, families aren’t drawn in and 95% of the people who live there wish they lived somewhere else.
I don’t agree with the union bashing I read in this string of comments. It seems to me that the issue of cost and health benefits is far bigger than just the auto industry. The implicit increase in the cost of all American products due to increasing employer-based health benefits is a dog that has bitten all companies. Yes, covering health costs was written into negotiated contracts, but more than anything it’s just an issue that has caused damaged to many employers over the last several decades. The causes of the weakness and failure of US auto makers is far more basic: design and build cars that are sound and that customer want to buy…anjd they will buy them. Unions will build anything the company tells them to build. Parts suppliers will supply anthing the auto companies require to build a car. So it is the company…management’s lack of vision, unwillingness to change, that seems to be at the root of the failure of the company. Companies that anticipate wehre the marketplace is going are the ones that survive and prosper. GM, Ford, Chysler all got behind the innovation curve and never did catch up.
Never bought American. Never will. I buy the best car for the best price and don’t care where it comes from. That’s isn’t American.
There aren’t ONLY Union employees working at the automotive companies. Thousands of engineers and office workers who are in no relation to the union are out of jobs.
These are only those directly employeed by the OEM, there are also thousands of suppliers, dealers and support industries that are going to continue to suffer.
Mismanagement and UAW greed have caused many good and intelligent people to lose everything.
Americans like big trucks and SUV’s. Americans like fast cars. Americans don’t like $3.00 to $5.00 per gal gas. I am not right or left, Conservative or Liberal, Republican or Democrat. I am for common sense. Do what Americans do best. Find a better way! Build me a F150 extended cab that can pull a boat while getting 40MPG on the freeway. OR…. Go get some oil from one of the countries we have “liberated” in the past two decades at a cost of about 10 BILLION DOLLARS A MONTH and thousands of American lives. Don’t tell me we can’t make a truck that gets that kind of MPG. We built an atomic bomb, put a man on the moon and even gave Magic Johnson his own talk show. PEOPLE WANT TRUCKS AND SUV’S AND MINIVANS TO CARRY ALL OUR STUFF. Build my 40MPG truck for a reasonable price and you will not be able to make them fast enough. Problem Solved!
Unfortuantely, Stalin’s comments could be applied to the auto & supply parts workers: one lay-off is a tragedy, 300,000 is a statistic. There is talk that hunderds of thousands of jobs are at risk. Folks, wake up: even if 300,000 jobs are gone, so what? That is the equvalent of a mere two weeks of job losses! Jobs have been evaporating at the rate of 600,000/month for at least a half a year. A couple hundred thousand won’t make any difference. BTW, I’m currently unemployed due to the recession so, yes, I feel the pain too!
When you have executives like recently retired Vice Chairman Bob Lutz (high level of arrogance; low level of competence) running a company; this is what you get… failure.
It really didn’t matter “HOW MUCH” the UAW members made but what mattered is “WHAT” the UAW members made. Forget the design of the car but focus on the quality of the car.
What seems to baffle the public is how two cars coming of the same assembly line could differ so much in quality. People bought “American” cars out of loyalty and support for “hard-working” Americans but were betrayed with inferior-quality “prideless-manufactured” cars. The quality of the Detroit cars are getting better now but it is too little too late. How gold-plated names such as “CHEVY” and “PONTIAC” are associated with bad-quality is something the UAW needs to reexamine.
Yes, management played a significant part in the demise of the companies. UAW attitude toward their work is the cancer that ultimately brought the companies to a slow and painful death.
My mother and I own Saturn vehicles, and we are VERY concerned about Saturn’s future. We have been loyal customers for ten years due to professional service and retail values; but it appears as if we will explore other options should Saturn be eliminated completely. Unemployed and currently attending college to change careers, I have another year to pay off my vehicle. My payments are higher than my mortgage payment, yet I receive such a hard time from GM when trying to reduce the $499 monthly payments until I can get back on my feet. I begged my mother not to purchase a new Saturn Vue back in January 2008, but she did not listen. Now she is worried to death about the value of the vehicle in addition to the conditions of the warranty. My mother use to travel up to an hour (one way) to receive service from a Saturn dealership. Now she is being asked to travel an additional thirty minutes due to her dealership closing in Atlanta. I am able to receive service for my vehicle in the same city I reside in; however, I must travel an additinal thirty minutes should I decide to purchase another Saturn in the future. Can you say, “Honda” or “Toyota?”
I have a Toyota Camry and a Dodge Caravan, about the same age and millage. It it more problem of the camry than of the caravan. It is not necessary that American Brand car is definitely worse than the Japanese one. The problem for big 3 is there is lack of good image of them. People just dont’ get motivation to buy them. Either you have car with best millage, or fastest speed, or best looking. If everybody is talking about one particular model, the image of the brand get high, it will affect people’s mind when shopping. I don’t understand GM’s decision to put Hybrid to Tohoe, increasing the mpg from 11 to 14, still a monster. Why can’t you increase from 30 to 60 mpg on some model, beat Toyota, beat Honda. Then everybody will talk about the great GM is making some technology advanced cars, people will feel safe or fashionable to buy a GM. Image, image, image!
I really don’t care what happens to GM or Chrysler because I will never purchase their products again. Let the Obama and union supporters buy the crappy cars.
I foresee GM and Chrysler being reduced to all but two brands – Chevy and Dodge. They will no longer be the major players in the auto industry that they once were. Ford will become the #1 US automaker very soon, they are doing things right and have designed cars and trucks that are actually decent looking unlike their hideous designs from the 90’s and early 2000’s. The UAW should be eliminated, however, or else this will all happen again in the future.
Greed is good as Gordon Geko stated in the movie Wall Street. But in this instance and the housing debacle greed was good for a time, people made a lot of money from Greed. Nobody ever thought Greed could bankrupt the USA.
While we complain about our foreign competitors makeing everything from autos to tv’s, it was the laws in this country that forced manufacturing here in the US to close it doors and move operations overseas. The unions which I believe were needed for a long time, are not needed as much in this generation. Unionizing costs manufactures entirely too much in terms of special consessions that normal workers never receive, the employees also paying in the form of union dues with the Union Bosses reaping all of the highest salaries for little or no work.
We need to restart manufacturing here in the US soon, we cannot continue to import so many goods into this country. We need to get to a point where we export more than we import to return to a profitable nation again. Excellent quality control, and pride need to guide our future course of business as a nation, not just corporate Greed.
Over time Greed should be obtained by making better products, developing new products, increased exports, and corporations should have “Bragging rights” as to how many US based employees they had at the end of the quarter along with their financial results. We need a little bit of self pride and self preservation for Greed to take on this new meaning.
There were too many bad decisions for this not to end any other way. For example, take a close look at the Pontiac cars. They all have the same front end design. This design has changed very little since the early 90’s. No light bulb went on with GM management that they needed to come up with something new. They slam the motors in many of their cars up against the firewall, so that changing spark plugs are plug wires takes a mechanic and big bucks. I almost bought a GM last model year run Monte Carlo more than two years ago but then I noticed that you couldn’t get to the oil filter unless the car was up on a rack. I don’t know if they allowed low bid parts but year after year, I would get the Consumer Reports Automotive issue and notice that that GM vehicles fell behind the Japanese vehicles as far as being trouble free and GM was not able to fix that quick enough. GM became out of touch so we all will just have to hope this will get them back on the same page with buyers.
Here’s a comment that Detroit should take seriously because I’m not alone. I will NEVER buy a vehical whose owner is a union or the US government. It’s Honda and Toyato from now on. I used to be a big Dodge guy. NEVER AGAIN
Time marches on bringing change and innovation, one only has to look at what we were amazed by 10, 20, 30, 0r 40years ago .Look the party line phones, the steam train engine our manufacturing mills ,radio to television , record players to Ipods on and on over and over change comes with progress and we adapt!! To me it seems we all have a time to rise and fall like the tides and for some reason some people just have to succumb to greed and self destruction
There are so many facets to this saga, it’s hard to pinpoint one thing as being the truly deciding factor. But if I had to take a guess, my bet would be on a.) poor management b.) unions. And I’ll explain my reason for both. Poor management since they agreed to give the greedy unions what they wanted, which was cushy jobs awarded to the senior lazy person, regardless of eduction or job experience. If my kids want something, I as their parent decided what is best and what isn’t. Just because they come crying wanting something doesn’t mean I have to give it to them, just like the unions. Now if I let my kids demand anything they want, and I give it to them, what do you think will happen? So, the fault starts with management followed up by unions being greedy. See how much they get now? Greed will only get you less in the end. The NHL had a lock out because guys making millions of dollars wanted more money to play a game, how did it end, with a CBA that gave them LESS than what they had been making before. What did the unions end up with, LESS than what they had before. Greed is an evil thing and so long as that’s how you conduct business, it’ll never end.
It is a shame that so many trusting, hard working and innocent employees are left out in the cold. UAW should be ashamed and accept that while its easy to blame everything from global recession to overseas comptetion to Republicans (they all were factors), the main reason for this disaster and mess is UAW and their policies. They bullied their way right into bankruptcy. Congratulations. You won. Now what boys? Which other true American business are unions going to tear down next? This is sickening.
Both my parents and my in-laws are 75+. Both have recently bought Toyotas, their first non-American made cars. When the 75+ crowd no longer considers it safe — or smart — to buy American, US automakers may not be salvageable with any amount of federal money.
If Americans did not want big gas guzzling trucks, why did Toyota decide to build 2 truck assembly plants, spenging millions, only to idle the plants ?
“By letting low-skilled jobs go overseas, it leaves room for high-skilled, high-productivity, higher-paying jobs.”
I suppose computer programmers, accountants, engineers, and research/development scientists are considered low-skill workers, then. These jobs are being offshored, as well, and that trend is expected by a number of organizations to accelerate. Don’t think for a second that your degree(s) will protect you. The only U.S. jobs that are (currently) protected from offshoring are those that require the worker to be on U.S. soil. Most everyone else is vulnerable.
It’s interesting to hear so many people villainizing the UAW for fighting tooth-and-nail to win better wages and benefits for its membership. The UAW protects its members’ interests, just as it’s supposed to do. Why does no one seem to villainize corporations who fight tooth-and-nail to create a “race to the bottom” with its employees wages? What about corporations who engineer and produce products overseas where salaries are low but turn around and sell those products in the first world for premium prices? These corporations are doing the same thing the UAW was doing…seeking unrealistic conditions out of creed and blind self-interest.
I hope everyone here is as smug when (s)he is affected in some way by this catastrophe.
The big 3 auto companies and the UAW made a lot of mistakes over the last 30 years resulting in continuing declines. But the final fall was due to the credit crunch and resession let loose by the wall street. In spite of the bad decision by the auto industry, no one has yet suggested that the declines were the result of outright fraud and excessive greed by the auto executives and the UAW.
Wall street has driven the economy to the ground and destroyed USA’s leverage and reputation in the global sphere not due to bad decision, but due to outright fraud, theft and excessive greed. Yet there is so little discussion or outrage towards wall street compared to the auto industry. There does not seem to be any fairness.
Is is because auto industry is manufacturing and employs lots of people that are not so well educated as compared to wall street who are highly educated from elite university and can articulate their point of view to well educated media elites.
All of the automakers are losing money. Why? The prices are tooo HIGH!!
Who can afford $400-500 payments on a $20K vehicle? We’re struggling to make ends meet even with a $110,000 income! Am I in the middle class or what? We need a new car. Our GM and Ford vehicles both have over 150,000 miles on them. I could use some “Cash for my Clunker” but it sounds like Congress will just throw me a bone! sounds
Will bankruptcy change them – not really, as they think it is the credit crunch that caused the downfall, and thought they had turned the corner before everything hit the fan. Rick Wagoner even said as much.
However, when you think of how the 300C and the PT Cruiser were absolute winners when they came out, but have not been developed any further by Chrysler, you can see where they went wrong. They also then tried to cost cut their way to profit – just look at the quality of the vehicles they have out today.
In the case of GM, just look at how they have tried to re-brand Saturn, how they have duplication of vehicles (Enclave, Traverse, Arcadia and Saturn version and the Malibu and Aura), they now have 2 roadsters where they didn’t have any and neither are “entry level” to the Corvette – the list goes on. But you can see where the cost / waste has gone.
And none of them got together to get E85 going, and Michigan / Granholm didn’t lead on it either. Another advantage completely lost in the wash.
And the dealers – really difficult on a good day. Try leasing or buying a smaller GM – very expensive, if you can do it.
One advantage of having the government involved could be that they see they are demanding for conflicting requirements. Extra safety (weight) vs fuel economy. Smaller vehicles that Americans really don’t want to buy. Electric cars but do we have the power stations to support them. No energy policy – still relying on the “big, bad” oil companies to be the only supply of fuel (oil) for America. We need the government to recognize their role in all of this and to facilitate hydrogen or ethonol or quick charge stations, because otherwise GM, Chrysler and Ford will only supply products that use oil.
Will bankruptcy change them – not unless the government gives them the infrastructure to do so.
By the way, I am a Brit, so if you really want to see what a mess looks like without any real solid industry, look across the pond. We need the industry here,, but need to have good management and government here to make it all work.
Dave Michigan
SO if the government takes over…
General Motors will become Government Motors and still retain the GM logo
To purchase a car, you will now go to the Automotive Acquisition Office (Similar to the Social Security Office)
Once you get there, you will stand in line for hours waiting on your automotive counselor
The counselor will review you financial information and tell you what type of car you qualify for.
Once qualified, in 8 to 12 business days, you will recieve a letter in the mail instructing you to report to the government owned car lot.
You will be issued a vehicle at the lot. You will have one choice in color – white.
After you are issued your vehicle, you will take it off the lot once you fill out paperwork for 8 to 10 hours.
Your auto loan will be backed by GMAC – the new Government Motors Acceptance Corporation.
If you default on your loan, no worries, Obama will have an Auto Loan bailout program similar to the one he created for the housing mess designed to protect those who can’t manage their money.
If your car breaks down under warranty, no problem. Take it to your nearesr Government Motors dealership and leave it there for 2 to 4 weeks while they process the paperwork to initiate the repair.
So on and so forth…
And you think quality was bad with the UAW involved…just wait.
GM and Chrysler both failed as a result of greed: greed of management wanting the higher profit margins on gas-guzzling SUV’s, and greed of the unions. Now both are wanting to change their ways but it’s too little too late. There aren’t enough ‘patriotic’ buyers in the USA to keep buying overpriced, unreliable, unexciting cars from these dinosaurs. Trouble is, these bankruptcies will have a large ripple effect on our already crippled economy. Regardless of who’s to blame, another 200 thousand or more Americans will now be out of work. Let’s hope these guys will make a comeback but I’m not holding my breath.
Turnaround consultants and bk attorneys are going to pour in, likely by the thousands, over the next few years. They’ll buy homes and bolster real estate prices in Oakland county over the next 3-5 years. They’ll sell the distressed auto asset to vulture financial investors, and the best assets will be sold to Japanese car makers who will rehire some of the legacy domestic auto employees on a non-union basis. The anti-foreign car sentimant will decline as people will care more about paychecks than their employer’s country of incorporation.
In 3-5 years, Detroit will be shift to a more distressed service based economy. In 10-20 years, the auto manufacturing health will resume but the players will change meaningfully.
GM will exist, on a much smaller basis selling 3-4 vehicles and providing logisitcal services for competitors.
Residential home prices will rebound in the nicest suburbs first, as consultants and lawyers seek the best school districts in light of long-term assignments. The down town residential rental market will improve meaningfully but the downtown (“Detoit proper”) homestarts/purchases will remain bad, likely forever.
In 15 years it will be somewhere between where chicago and Detroit stand today. The smart children of auto engineers will defer to law, consulting, and financial services. It will get worse before it gets better. But the Lions will still suck.
After being run as a mindless government bureaucracy for a few years GM and Crystler will rival The Postal Service as a model of efficiency. The definition of “going postal” will have to be expanded.
Why don’t they shut down their plants and rebuild in the South where they have fewer unions or just rebuild and not allow for union workers, make it a closed shop. They could even pay workers in most southern states half to a third of what they are being paid in Detroit and Ohio.
Unions are the worst thing to ever happen to America. When the cost of American made cars drops about 5-8000 dollars, then and only then, will their sales pickup.
In the early 1990’s i noticed that the Japenese rusters where being built better having owed nissans (maxima 225k just brakes, tires, suspension and a muffler same with my 300zx). Near the end of the 90’s I wanted to get another maxima but they were 10k more than the Mecury Sable loaded. I’d been travelling and had tons of rental cars and the Taurus stood out as my favourite so I bought the Sable. No rust, no problems just a set of breaks and tires and I got 240k before the tranny started acting up. Then i bought an exporer in 2002. Good vehicle but the rad blew and nothing else sent it back from lease with 75k. Then we got the Eddie Bauer, nice vehicle no problems sent it back with around 75k. Now I own a Lincoln MKX and we love it and recently bought our son a Ford Fusion. We’d like to unload the Corolla even though it’s been a solid performer but the fusion sips just a little more gas and you can fit 2 hockey bags easily in it plus i’m 6′2″ and my oldest boy is 6′4″ and man, let me tell you that fusion is so comfortable for us it’s crazy. Pontiacs and those I know who’ve owned them, well, the late 90’s and early 2000’s weren’t kind to their legacy. Sorry GM, I love you, the new Volt idea, the Camero is sick and that Enclave almost swayed me but back in the 80’s 90’s ouch!. Detroit will be fine if, and only if it embraces the realities of the 21st century and that is work hard, but most of all work smart. Keep building reliable and roomy vehicles and let us pick the toys one by one i.e. gas sipping engine, a drinking with some balls or a sick eco boost type engine that drinks but doesn’t guzzle at the same time delivers exhileration. Have you driven a Ford lately? I know you all may have had a taste of disappointment with previous generations of American cars but I implore you to seriously consider a Ford and truely compare it to the other brands out there. Don’t get me wrong, my brothers 80’s Accord was awesomely reliable and kinda fun to drive and my 300zx was just pure joy and a Ford might not be for you but just give the original American Icon who ushered in a new age a chance, just a chance. I play hockey with a lot of the guys at the Ford plant in Oakville that make the Flex, Edge and the Lincoln brothers MKT and MKX and they are good hard working people who take pride in their jobs, not to say those at other plants in other companies don’t but I only know first hand that Ford has people like that in Canada and we are proud of the great products they are creating and if you know sports be it hockey, football or basket ball you know you need to grind it, push it and be focused to be a winner and those guys play hockey like the Detroit Red Wings and to me judging by their work at the Oakville plant that same combination of grit, skill and team first is what champions are made of so people of Detroit dig in and you’ll regain some of what you have lost. Good luck from your brothers and sisters to the north.
Right now, yes it is not a great place to live because of the lack of work. My future husband has been out of work for almost a year now. It effects everyone.
But what people outside the area forget is how resilliant the Metro Detroit Area is. We went through this in the early 80’s and once again, when the restof the country stops buying expensive items like vehicles and appliances, the State of Michigan as well as the Metro Area go into full fledge job shedding and resession.
It will last for a while and then we will come back to the same strength we once were.
That’s living and working in Detroit and I wouldn’t have it any other way!
When is anyone in a responsible position in the government and industry going to realize that the Big Three are in cahoots with the UAW. If the Big 3 had any brains they would move all there factories to Right to Work states and get rid of the UAW!
Detroit needs to be walled off, the walls filled in, and the town started over. Most of the country has understood this for 40 years. But the city has little to do with the automakers, and the connection is a bit unfair. Both are horrible. The auto makers suffered from hubris. The city suffers from paranoid and self-destructive leadership.
Detroit will absolutely not make a comeback. It is the “failed state” of the U.S. All Michigan can hope to do is isolate it and contain it.
The best hope for the region is the day when the current generations of delusional UAW works and retirees, cease to be voters and let the area move on.
We americans are so silly, we loved the trucks and large SUV’s made by the big 3 until gas went to $4 bucks a gallon. We laughed at the little european cars and so called “rice burners”. We were once proud of what this country had obtained. I read your blogs shaming the UAW but it seems out of jealousy, if you were offered the money you would take it too. It wasn’t the line worker that allowed for lazy people to keep there jobs just because of them being in the union, it was the company and the government that signed off on the agreement. 90 percent of people working in Michigan are exactly like 90 percent of the workers in other states, hard working and good people. Our government let this failure in the american auto companies to happen. We vote in politicians, then some of them have personal agendas and have caused our current crisis. What do we as americans do, vote them back in because we like their political affiliation. There is only one way to fix what is happening in this country. You vote a person in, when they fail, vote for the next guy. Don’t keep career useless politicians in office, send them to the unemployment line. And as far as buying only american made cars vs imports, buy what you can afford. The quality these days is pretty much the same across the board. But, don’t worry big 3, the tax payers will bail you out. Not neccessarily because we want to, but rather, because our elected officials feel that as long as we can suck another penny out of each american then hey, why not!
First…I think it’s unfair to compare the way Japanese companies are managed to the way American companies are managed. Japanese culture is a complete contrast to American culture. Their style of work and their work ethic is the same in the workplace as it is at home. The same is true for American companies. The workplaces generally reflect the overall culture of the country that runs it. America companies will never be run the same way as Japanese companies…because we are different, and that’s ok.
As far as comparing products…that’s a different story. I have never owned a foreign vehicle. I have always bought American. And, I have always regretted buying American within several months after the purchase. Yet, I keep coming back for more because the American car companies always have some incredible deal that I just can’t pass up…and certainly can’t justify spending more on the foreign cars. The American car companies have saturated the market with their products and have no pricing power left. In order to remain afloat and try to compete with foreign-made vehicles, they have to build a more efficient vehicle, cut down on the saturation of the market to gain pricing power, and yes….get rid of the legacy costs. Unions are meant to create a fair working environment. Yet, unions are a business too. They receive compensation from every single union member…don’t you think they want the workers to make as much money as possible? Most unions are so caught up in increasing wages and benefits that they pay no attention to the needs of the business. When those needs cannot be met because legacy costs take priority, the company will ultimately fail. Unions should be not-for-profit. They should not be making money off the employees. That’s how it would be if they were truly representing the employees and trying to make work “fair.”
I think the bankruptcy filing will improve some areas of the company. They will be forced to run more lean, and create the better products in order to get their customers back. But, until the unions get a reality check, this will only be a temporary fix. (Don’t get me wrong…this is not the fault of the union workers…if I could get those benefits, I certainly would take advantage….but it’s not the right thing to fix the problem.)
The entire economy is a mess. The government doesn’t know what to do…businesses don’t know what to do, and hard-working Americans don’t know what to do.
It’s like being on sinking ship and having a band-aid in one hand and a grenade in the other. One item could provide a temporary repair, the other could sink the whole ship. Which do you choose?
The unions are not the bad guys here. The Republican Party has done everything within its power to convince the American Public that the unions are to blame. Think about it folks. You are criticizing the only organization left that has the guts to challenge the executive boards across America. Are you suggesting that Corporate America will look out for us. You are more foolish and stupid than possible. If it was not for the unions everyone in America would probably be working a 60 hour week. Think about it folks. Everyone in America would not have health insurance of life insurance. The unions broke the ground for every worker… Blue collar and white collar in America. YOu are all soo very foolish to blame them for this situation. The senior management at GM blew this big time and the workers will pay until GM closes down. Where is Roger Smith? Sitting somewhere in a mansion laughing all the way to the bank.
Rick
“It is funny to see all the people bashing the Union and even one comment telling them to go to school and learn something to do a real job.”
You missed my point. I didn’t say that they need to go to school to learn a “real job” — I certainly don’t look down on the work of the UAW, but I don’t agree with the money they earn for doing this work.
My point is that if these people want to maintain the same salaries, they might want to think about going to school to learn something different.
I sincerely hope that the bankrupcy helps to kill off some of the arrogance that drove GM to mass produce gas guzzlers and toys while the rest of the world was focusing on price and economy. It is time to wake up. The American public, as a whole, can not afford $55,000 vehicles and $4.00 gas at the same time. This is what brought our economy to its knees and if they don’t wake up, it will again, in about 2 years. The sad thing is if we are not prepared for it the next time, I do not believe we can get through another recession of this magnatude.
American cars have not been competitive with Japanese, Korean, or German cars in decades. I work with people who are thrifty and successful; they can afford to buy any car on the market and they pay cash when they do. None own American/UAW cars. GM may survive in shrunken form, but only because some prefer inferior American products to superior foreign products, a rational if not cost-efficient choice. As far as being competitive with foreign marks, GM, don’t bother: the pop-up thermometer has popped; you’re done.
I will NEVER buy a Gm or Chrysler product again.
UAW should be JAILED for what they did to the Auto workers and the companies themselves. They are just too corrupt. Look UAW owns (yes Owns at the Auto workers expense)Country Clubs and many other properties, this is INSANE. The President should be going after these UAW people ASAP. Way more to blame than Mr. Wagoner.
I will not purchase a GM car. I own stock in GM and they file bankruptcy and still can exist and throw my hard earned money down the drain. If a company goes into bankruptcy they should have to sell what they own to pay off the people who invested in them. If I owe taxes the IRS will come after me to get what is owed to them. Why are big companies treated differently. Let them and all the other companies sell what assets they have to pay back people who invested in them. I will now purchase a Ford even though I may still get a discount because my father worked for GM. If they had not been so greedy they would still be in business. That goes for the workers as well as the people above them. Look out they will be coming for your job and pay next.
Unions have little to no use anylonger. They had a purpose back in the day when people needed protection. Now with all the laws in place, as long as your doing your job, you have that protection. The unions only protect the unproductive. Which has helped in bringing these companies to their knees, lowering the quality of the product so they can cut corners to pay for the stagger labor costs etc. They are getting what they deserve. I think the best thing they can do is go bankrupt, fire everyone. Open their doors with good pay, fair bennies and there will be no need for unions. It will be a productive environement and better product.
Nothing will change, they can not pay those insane wages for doing those jobs Any GM line worker max wage should be around 15/hour period, it’s not like there is any skill or knowledge required for those jobs.
Since my tax dollars are blown on these clowns I will never buy from them the rest of my life!
I have been in the automobile business for the last 15 years. The downfall of GM and Chrysler have been lead by the UAW. The contracts the UAW and these companies have negotiated make it impossible for a company to run profitably. Any time a company is responsible for paying retirement benefits and mainly healthcare benefits for over 8 times their curent workforce (650,000 people), there is NO way for that company to continue showing a profit. This is very apparent in the profit losses (in the billions)reported by Chrysler and General Motors over the last 7 years. Through all these losses, the UAW continues to profit. Because of the astronomical costs being paid out by these companies to these beneficaires, these companies are not able to produce vehicles with quality parts (that cost more) at a competetive price. This in turn causes we Americans to not trust American made vehicles. This in turn causes the manufacturers to offer factory incentives because the manufacturer cannot move the inventory off their holding lots. And because of the surplus of vehicles and incentives the resale values drop faster than their Japanese counterparts. This makes Americans more reluctant to purchase these vehicles. And the problems continue to expand. The solution is to not have an UAW. The Japanese and German manufacturers producing vehicles in the United States do not have any unions at their facilties. Theses companies are not filing bankruptcy. Sorry UAW.
My last GM vehicle was a 94 Olds 88 LSS. I drove it for 200,000 miles (9 years). The preventative maintenance schedule was rigously held to with dealer technicians. Every 30k miles, a substantial bill. I even knew by name the tech who kept the Olds running. My wife has bought Honda Accords since the late 1970s…she doesn’t know the techs at the dealership since major maintenance has not been required for 200k miles of reliable service. For decades, GM’s components (especially engine gaskets) seemed to be designed for lease customers who kept cars for 3 years max. Long-term reliability was not an objective. Today, I drive a Toyota Camry (160k miles, no major maintenance costs). I’ll never enter a GM showroom again.
For those who wan’t to ignore the great vehicles that GM makes, I’m here to say they do make them and they can compete with the Foreign cars. I drive a 2001 Chevy Malibu with 220,000 miles on it and never had any major issues with it. My husband drives a 2001 GMC Sierra 2500HD Crew Cab – 8 foot bed truck with over 175,000 miles on it. Also never had any major work don on it. So GM Management has been making great cars , but with the greeady UAW not letting them make wise business decision, Detroit will never regain any of it’s competitiveness. GM knew it had too much capacity ot the plants, but why sshut them down when you still had to pay UAW wages to those who sat at home doing nothing!!! And until the Obama Administration stops supporting the UAW, Detroit will never be able to be prosperous.
When is the UAW/GM going to look at autoworkers in Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama, and South Carolina who make good livings for profitable companies (Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes) and see what they are doing right and what Detroit is doing wrong. These Americans make cars and trucks for sale in the US without the overhead of the UAW. The reason being is they treat their employees well and avoid the union B.S.
The unions had their time and place and got greedy and irresponsible demanding more than they really needed, forcing the big 2 to cut corners and quality. This is why American cars don’t sell.
Secondly, Japanese cars last longer and are more reliable. This is a proven fact.
Third, and this is most telling, last week when offered a large stake in the ownership of Chrysler, the union declined. Why do you think this is? Because then they would have to take a realisitic look at the contracts and make cuts and they do not want to do that to their members. It puts the union on the hook for the unions past transgressions and of course, it can’t be the UAW’s fault.
Detroit is going the way Pittburgh did in the late 70’s and early 80’s when the steel industry collapsed. Japanese import steel shut down an entire era in Pittsburgh and now the cars are doing the same to Detroit. The Steelworkers lost all their high paying jobs as well and back then there was no government intervention. J&L, US Steel, they all went under but the city recovered and sought new industry. Detroit will need to do the same.
The current course of action is merely delaying the final bankruptcy and dissolution of these companies. There are many reasons for the failure of GM and Chrysler and the solution being applied does little to solve these underlying issues.
One key reasons these companies have failed is due to unions and their protect the union employee at any cost mentality. Under this militant attitude they have worked year after year to hinder changes within the companies that would make them more efficent and streamlined, as any such changes would impact the employees. As recently as October of last year, the union was saying they’ve given back too much (pay and benefits) already and would not give back any more to GM. And they only blinked when the Government balked at bailing out the company. IN other words, they wanted taxpayers to cover their costs while they did nothing at all to save their own company.
Now, under this solution, instead of weakening the union hold on the company so it CAN act and change, the union will partially own GM. How do you think they will influence the company? Will they allow GM to continue to make the decisions needed to make a workable company? Or will they fight each decision that may impact a union member, constantly pushing for someone else to pay the price (IE .. the taxpayers with ANOTHER $30 Billion in loans).
Sorry, GM and Chrysler are both doomed. And so is Detriot and anyone who lives there.
Well basically, the american made cars are the best overall. The union made cars tend to be more expensive but not poorer quality. I have driven Fords, Chevys, Volkswagons, and Toyotas, Dodges, Chyslers, Oldsmobiles, Jaguars, and Buicks, made from 1938 to 2007. I currently drive a Ford truck and a Chevy car. The issue is not quality, it is taste. People buy for many reasons, mostly because they ‘think’ they are buying the right car for the right reason. Some want a safe car, some a green car, some an ecconomical car, others a cool car. Me, I still want one built (assembled) in America that gets me from here to there comfortably and dosn’t cost an arm and a leg. I don’t want one from a company that is owned by the government or the union!
All that GM had to do was build cars exactly like Honda, Toyota or Volvo and put competitive prices on them. Why close dealerships? What GM needs now is more salesmen, not fewer. What will the idle dealerships do next? Sell Honda, Toyota, KIA, Hyundai etc. GM is a dinosaur.
GM will have to have a sucker punch to the American consumer. Example… 0-60 in 5 seconds, seat 6, get 60mpg (hybrid) , and look hotter than a Ferrari…AND cost less than $26K. Then they will make there comeback. But, with cars like the Chevy Aveo, and getting rid of Ponitac(the only performance sector) AND NOT letting Cadillac build them a decent looking minivan. Then GM is a loss.
Just sad i tell you Just sad !!!
I will be buying a Ponitiac G8 next year though…
I have owned only GM vehicles since I was 17. An Olds Omega in ‘78(not their best car), an Olds Calais in ‘85, a Chevy Malibou in ‘94, a Buick Century in 2000, & I just bought a 2008 Chevy Impala a year ago. If the taxpayer is going to own 60% of GM why the hell should I have to finish paying for my car. It’s financed through GMAC. I have been a GM supporter all my life. And you know what? I will probably die a GM supporter. I will always support the American made car. I just hope GM can right itself.
American car importance decline is a result of CEO’s work by cutting cost for everything and paying price of ignoring customer’s demand for better, higher quality and more efficient cars. CEOs definitely succeeded and were paid their golden parachutes with miserable life of American people, – no doubt!! Future of Detroit is a old designs-cars sweatshops filled with working visa-holders from Asia and Latin America, paid minimum wage. Americans will be employed only through government.
Dave Henry from GR,
Quality IS still an issue. My gf drives a new Chevy Impala. Its a very nice car, and extremely quiet. The interior is nice and roomy. This is what Honda and Toyota were making 5 years ago. The Hondas and Toyotas and BMWs of today are what Ford and GM will be making in 5 years. If you opened your mind and drove one, you’d see. I am unbiased, because I come from the South yet worked at Ford. I saw for myself the good and bad of Ford and by association, the big 3.
Ford, GM need to come up with something new. They need to hire or give the reigns to the brightest scientists and engineers they can find.
Nothing will change they will still make bad decisons and we will bail them out again, the unions will get what they want and so on and so on the only folks not getting anything out of this deal ia the taxpayer the ones footing the bill. If any of us from MAIN STREET would ahve done what these companies have done and than asked for goverment help we would have been laughed right back out the door, if anyone would have listened in the first place.Oh and we would have either lost our bussiness or job for not doing it right hum what wrong with this picture bad decisons and folks still have the job they have been hired to do and they are not doing it, ahh leave it to lazy people..
How does the bankruptcy affect (Greater)Detroit? Well, today, it is a kick in the teeth for Detroit. The pain is real and there has been a breaking of an emotional contract between the automakers and the citizens.
Going forward, it was the right thing to do. The President was correct to force the issue.
The greater Detroit area is a dichotomy. Michigan is a beautiful state and we have some of the best universities in the country and yet the city of Detroit is a cesspool of illiteracy and racial politics.
Perhaps with GM going bankrupt, this will also force change in Detroit. The past is over. It’s time to move on. It’s time for radical change to secure a better future for all citizens of the greater Detroit area.
Thank you ” Hey, there is a women on here”. UAW workers please take note from this hard working American!
It is my understanding that some part supliers provide parts to all the automakers (Domestic & Foreign). How come the parts only break on GM & Chrysler cars? So we should blame the parts supplier for bad GM products and high wages/benefits then?
UAW = “U Ain’t Working”
UAW = U ain’t working…
In the course of 20 years, my wife and I have owned a Ford, Chrysler, GM, Toyota, Honda, and Nissan. The Ford went through camshafts like they were water and we dumped that care with less that 100K miles, the GM had brakes that literally fell off the car and warped the rotors continuously. When we went to the dealer to get parts, they acknowledged the known issue and said it was common. Dumped that car with less that 100K mile, the Chrysler had electrical problems and we dumped that one with less than 100K as well. This was over a period of 7 years.
Then we bought a Nissan that went over 180K and we kept for 8 years, a Toyota that went 250K and 13 years, and a honda that is now over 160K and 6 years.
The Japanese vehicles we have owned have far exceded any American car on performance and reliability and we will never but a GM, Ford or Chrysler again.
We are not unlike many Americans who have experienced the same thing and fled from the American car manufacturer.
I worked in Automotive manufacturing as well, supplying parts to the big three as well as several Japanese and German manufacturers. We were non union, but were paid close to union scale for the simple reason of keeping the unions out of our plants. Our employees were happy, treated well and productive. I also worked in union shops and they were inefficient and simply took care of the lazy workers who had seniority.
The UAW did this to themselves and are getting what they deserve. Until the union steps up and realizes that they have priced themselves out of a job, they will continue to lose ground. This is not the 1950’s anymore.
We
The gravy train for the UAW workers is over. Where else these days can a typical factory worker make what a UAW worker had, the wages, the pension, the benefit package, being paid while not working? I don’t know of any other typical factories in 2009 that have the scope of an employment package the UAW workers had. Retire at age 40 with a huge pension and benefit package? How long did anyone think that could continue? The legacy costs are staggering.
As far as quality? I’ve bought cars for 35 years now. I’ve sampled most every make. Right now GM is about on par or better than some of the import names. I had a 2006 Mazdaspeed6, from week 1 it was throwing codes and continually having some new issue, some recall, some new trouble light flashing. I sold it after 18 months with 20k miles and it had lost 50% it’s original value. I bought a 2008 Pontiac G5 GT to replace it. 18 months later and 20k miles not 1 single, problem.
GM needs to clean house and get dead serious about running a business for profit, if they think this bankruptcy is just another handout and there are no meaningful, dramatic changes across their entire business they can and will cease to exist down the road. Anyone who thinks GM is too big for that to happen has not learned any lessons from history.
“How the mighty have fallen in the midst of the battle”……
It is funny to see all the people bashing the Union and even one comment telling them to go to school and learn something to do a real job. I find it amusing that everyone wants to blame the union yet fail to say anything about the executives who ran the companies into the ground. They probably went to school for that though! Let’s not forget that Ford still has Union workers and are staying afloat. Could that be because they made the right executive decisions at the right time. Yes, union workers are overpaid, Yes, many of them lack college educations, however, it isn’t a glamor job and the work ethic that majority of plant workers display is what this city was built on. Also, everyone seems so eager to point out the hourly wage of a union worker and their up north houses and harleys, all the while, CEO’s are enjoying the Country Club lifestyle making $21 million a year. Look at the equation, it doesn’t add up, you can blame the union and the pay rates for so long, but the truth of the matter is when the company goes to crap, that CEO moves on and finds another company to bankrupt and even if he/she doesn’t, that $21 mill will last a lot longer than the union workers $60k. There is equal blame to go around for what has happened. It is concerning what the future holds, maybe I’ll give Mr. Wagoner a ring and see if he’ll help me out with my college education.
Detroit is the armpit of America. The U.S. should give Michigan to Canada and be done with the state. Or, better yet, send all convicts to Michigan and let them rot away together with Granholm.
First:
I lived in Michigan while I went to UM. I couldn’t afford to live in Ann Arbor so I lived between AA and Detroit. The cost of living there was low. For some one to claim that it’s high is misleading.
Second:
This is the most revealing information you’ll read. Everyone in Michigan has toys for every season. All UAW backed employees make so much money they can afford really nice houses and have boats, jet ski, snowmobiles, etc. A toy for every season.
I’d like to see a story where they actually look into the life of the workers. I’m not talking about the finding the poorest person either. Look at the large picture. Find out how much they own or what they spend their money on, then and only then will America see the true face of Michigan.
U.S is bankrupt. GM is bankrupt, AIG should have allowed to go bankrupt, Citi, list goes on. Bush spent 700 billion + Obama has spent 700 billion + (and he’s just starting !). Just making GM smaller doesn’t mean they have changed their way of doing business. Also just a thought-U.S. population is 300 mil–how many of those are actual workers paying taxes ? maybe 150 milion ? would have been alot cheaper to give us all workers a check for let’s say $200,000.00 . I don’t need a million dollar bonus. I’m not that greedy ! This would certainly pay my home off and I could afford to buy me some health insurance, and still have a nice amount left over. By the way at this point I don’t think it would have made any difference who we voted for. Also I have unemployed for 6 months with no end in sight.
I agree with some of the other posters that unions have gone too far and abused some privileges, but people here are forgetting these are the few people left in the country who get paid for making something.
Why should all the big paychecks go to Wall Street looters? Not only do the Wall Streeters not make anything, it’s become clear over the last year that they have been systematically destroying the country for their own gain.
The problem with union benefits isn’t unions, it’s the same thing that is wrong with everything in this country: Insurance companies. They don’t make anything, don’t pay claims, don’t cover health care. They jack up the cost of everything and provide little or no benefit to the insured.
Union benefits, like all benefits, would be much less costly if insurance companies were not in the middle of it.
The solution is simple, build a product that the world wants and prosper. GM mgmt did not serve its employees or stock holders, but they got paid alot of money to make poor decisions. They succumbed to UAW demands, providing wages & benefits that could not be supported. GM mgmt build products no one wanted to buy And, now the party is over and everyone is waking up with a hangover… We want to “blame” someone. Some want to blame the UAW for being greedy… Hmmmmmm, when was the last time you turned down a great bargain? The UAW got what it asked for… Unemployment for its members. There is no one to blame but the “man-in-the-mirror”. It is time for America to return to what made us the envy of the world — our ability to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off and give to the rest of the world. It is time for us to SHUT UP, PUT UP, PAY THE PRICE, Help out our fellow Americans… Yeah, I know, we did not cause the problem… But HELL YEAH, we can fix the problem… Sure, we all will suffer in some manner for poor decisions by others; but dammit, stop complaining and start building. Our children are watching and learning from our actions…
Please let me state this first. My wife and I and my two daughters are all proud and patriotic U S citizens. In my 22+ years in this country, I have spent my hard earned money on a 1989 and 1993 Mercury Sable. After being given the runaround by the dealer for a transmission problem under warranty for which I ended up paying over $700, I decided never to buy any automobile from the so called big 3. They were complacent, not at all innovative, fat and laid back.
My older daughter, now married to a good old Dodge Ram driving Texan, still drives her 1998 Toyota Camry which we gave her as a freshman in college. It has over 175,000 miles on it and she has no complaints.
My younger daughter who graduates high school this week drives a 2008 Toyota Camry. My wife and I drive Nissan Maximas, 1998 and 2002. All that these cars need is regular and dealer recommended maintenance.
I sympathize with everyone affected by the bankruptcies and the layoffs that will occur. I speak from experience. I was laid off by IBM. I have been looking for work since September 2008.
I think it is crazy for american people to think that products are made better in other countries. That means other people reap the award for our hard earned money wheather it’s cars or electronics it’s not going to our communities so when you say “i’m never going to buy an american made car again” you’re saying one day i’m moving to japan to get a job because that’s where your money went.
CEO’s,Management,Wall Street,Banks,Government all Money Hungry Pigs Living just fine, who making 25,000 to 35,000 a year Before Tax can afford a House a New car, Insurance for both ,Food,Electric,Gas,Personel supplies, Cars that cost 27000 with 450.00 a month payment way to much
The actions shown during the last week by General Motors shows that they have not learned. They are still trying to sell us cars that they want to sell rather than selling us the cars that we need …… they have discontinued the Saturn and are keeping Cadillac. That says it all in one sentence.
I have to admit that I was disappointed in the announcement that GM has filed for Chapter 11, but not overly surprised.
Over the years, Chrystler had been shown time and time again that it was not a viable company on its own. It had sought bankruptcy protection at least once before.
GM’s problem was more poor management and overextension. It has invested heavily into the SUV and large car market. 20 years ago, that made sense. However, over the past decade, the demand for smaller, more fuel efficent (and more fun to drive) cars has risen exponentially, giving foreign markets significant opportunity for market share, on which they captialized.
GM attempted to get into this area with Saturn. I have to admit that until recently, Saturn was very visually appealing. Unfortunately for GM, it was shown to be about as reliable as any other GM car, and only slightly more fuel efficient.
The feeling I get from the Big Three is that for the last 10-20 years, they have been reacting to the innovations of the foreign auto makers rather than innovating new products and creating a new market niche. They have also failed to heed the call of Americans for truely reliable vehicles, regardless of size.
This is where Ford differs from both GM and Chrysler. They have made significant changes to make the cars safer, more reliable and more fuel efficent, even while maintaining thier niche in large cars. They are also beginning to make inroads into the small car market with the focus and the new taurus design.
Hopefully, as GM and Chrysler emerge from bankruptcy, they will look to Ford and learn from the only sucessful American automaker left.
I think it is truly a sad day. I am absolutely heartbroken. It’s sad to see some of these comments regarding how people hate GM products, wish GM would die. These are American people that are losing their jobs, small towns (like the one that I am) from will be seriously affected. An American icon has just been destroyed and it will affect everyone in the American economy from doctors to hourly workers. I hope my tax dollars can change GM and keep Americans working in America so the life that we know and was passed down to us from our grandparents can continue for generations. I am proud of my country and I still believe that America should be United — one for all and all for one. And that is how we prospered in the past and will need to continue for the country to remain as great as it is.
To Pete Atkins in Iowa: Thank you, thank you, thank you!
It’s interesting to watch the Japan fanboys here talk about how the Japanese auto companies take such good care of their employees because “it’s the right thing to do.” They seem to portray the Japanese auto companies as morally superior to the American auto companies. This is *completely* ridiculous.
The Japanese auto companies are businesses just like any other, and they will extract the most “value” they can with the least “investment.” In other words, they will do whatever they can to get the most from their workers while compensating the least they can. That’s business. The primary reason they take such good care of their U.S. auto workers is BECAUSE of the UAW. The Japanese auto companies want to keep their employees happy so they don’t unionize.
Now that the UAW is broken, you can bet that the worker conditions at the Japanese plants will deteriorate at least somewhat. If you want some verification of the nature of the Japanese auto companies, just Google Kenichi Uchino. This example is specific to Toyota, but the situation is similar with the other ones.
Additionally, the UAW did not kill GM or Chrysler. The union did exactly what it was supposed to do: demand better wages and working conditions for its membership. GM’s management is what killed GM. GM’s management agreed to all of the UAW’s demands and GM’s management called the shots that resulted in the poor quality of its vehicles. Auto workers can only assemble parts in so many ways; if the parts aren’t engineered properly and they simply don’t fit, there’s nothing the union auto worker can do to make it right. GM’s problem is that it’s been managed by accountants and MBAs rather than engineers, manufacturing experts, and people who know cars.
To those who say to the UAW auto workers “Go to college, get a degree, and make yourself valuable enough to earn your pay!”: simply telling people to go to college is NOT the answer. You can spend six years and hundreds of thousands of dollars in college to learn a specific trade only to find that trade offshored in the near future. One’s actual value to a corporation is often not reflected in compensation, and will be even less reflected in compensation as offshoring accelerates. It will serve to keep ALL of our wages in check. Yet college costs continue to rise each year. No, simply getting a(nother) degree isn’t the answer.
I write this as someone with a college education who drives a Honda.
Get off the blaming of the new administration for all the bad things. It has been in place for a couple of months. Look at what set this into motion- 8 years of bad leadership. The right blames the left because they are scared. They should be because we will not see republican leadership in this country for another 25 to 30 years. Get ready for 5 to 6 Democratic presidential terms people. The last 8 years ruined it.
To all who feel this is the end of America, get a clue.
If you have ever traveled outside the US, you would know how economically far above the rest of the world we are. Unless a more brilliant constitution or form of government comes along, the US will be the world’s economic hub for decades and probably centuries. The key is to attract and cultivate all talent, including foreign. As this happens, labor will become more expensive, and this means that low-skilled jobs will get outsourced….jobs that are less productive than high-skilled jobs. By letting low-skilled jobs go overseas, it leaves room for high-skilled, high-productivity, higher-paying jobs.
It is way past due that the dealers have to share some of the pain that they brought on. The dealers have taken way too much of the pie for too long. Everyone screams about the UAW bringing a decent life to working people. Yet no one complains about some sleazy, lying piece of car salestrash living high on the hog. This country will not start to come back till we return to rewarding productivity over marketeering hype.
Oh and for you sooo proud of your education, business degrees and marketeering degrees are not education. It is glorified third grade stuff. Doctors, engineers, scientists all have to take significant course loads. Psych and marketeering majors are there to take up time and space as they find themselves because they are too lazy to get a real job and not smart enough to make it through a real course of study. They have no business looking down on the UAW.
Hey, I’ve got a Oldmobile Bravada with 162K miles, and it still runs as well as the day I bought it. I won’t be needing another truck for a long, long, long time.
As a former salaried worker at Ford, I am pleased to see Ford has been able to avoid the governments help. Not only does it help thier image, but certainly the ford family does not want the gov’t in their business either.
For GM and Chrysler, there was no one single factor that drove them to this point.
Take the UAW. they did what they were supposed to do – protect their workers and negotiate higher benefits. However, their tactics to strike when they don’t get what they want is just childish. For the most part, the UAW positions are UNskilled labor. No need for a degree — the compensation and benefits should follow. the original purpose of the UAW was to improve working conditions which they achieved. Once they achieved those goals they overgrew their usefulness by becoming greedy. I dislike the UAW as much as anyone else, but to place all the blame on them is wrong.
How about management: they should have stood up to the UAW as others, such as Caterpillar, did. Unfortunately, the “pattern” bargaining stratgey again benefitted the UAW. Also, reacting quicker to changing economics and consumer tastes over the past 30 years would have helped.
Engineers: follow the lead of Toyota and Honda and have Global platforms and common parts. not 50 platforms uniquely designed for each market. The big 3 have done better over the past 10 years, but they still aren’t quite there.
How about vehicle designs: bland and/or low quality. Ford has made great strides and has many quality cars. Chryslers has great designs but awful quality. GM has too many “me too” and bland designs with avg quality.
how about consumers (yes, us). We kept buying large, inefficient vehicles and they were none to happy to provide them. Yes, this one is our fault, not the Big 3’s.
So much else, but I’ll stop there.
We would not buy your crappy cars, so you took our money! If the American public thinks they will ever see the billions that went down that rat hole, think again.
It does not matter what GM does at this point. I am so angry about this whole thing that I would never buy a GM product no matter what they built. GM got themselves into this mess with short sighted engineering and production techniques designed to maximize profits and executive bonus, unfortunately that did not seem to translate into stockholder value and now we have come to this.
The unions have themselves to blame for their state of affairs, they killed the goose. Maybe they can sell off their multi-million dollar golf course that the rank and file can’t even play at.
Can someone explain why the market is going through the roof today; based on this news, over 7 million American workers will loose their jobs in the next coming months?
The American taxpayers were promised both this year and last year that the multiple bailouts (12.4 Trillion spent so far) were necessary to save main street American middle class jobs. All I see is the banking, Wall Street, Auto and Government executives saving their big bonuses and the American workers getting blamed for the mess and given a pink slip. I see the national average for unemployment going to 15% before the end of this year, with the things getting even harder in 2010 and even more difficult in 2011 when all of this bailout money runs out, and it will be time to pay China back.
Wake up America! WWIII happened and we lost and not even a shot was fired. The American worker was sold out by a Progressive Government and the “New World Order”. Both of the major parties (Democrats and Republicans) have been telling us for decades that we will build this nation into the “New World Order” through progressive government interpretations of the U.S Constitution. These policies are selling our nation piece by piece, our freedom our liberty sold so the world’s leadership can get even wealthier.
It’s about time. The UAW, with their unrealistic demands forcing companies to comply with their demands have finally killed the goose that laid the egg. Like those who have said before me; this has been going on for over 30 years, and it’s about time the unprofitable companies failed. Very simply, labor has driven them out of business. Same problem with state, federal, and local government. Wages will bankrupt the states also, and force any of us with brains out and we will move to states who have no state income taxes and have responsible budgets. For all of you liberals that voted for Obama and his socialistic crooks; you will get what you deserve for your ignorance. There is no free ride in this world; get a job.
From Detroit, visit often. I agree with previously posts – City of Detroit failure not a result of problems with Auto Industry. Saving US Auto Industry is not about saving Detroit, or GM or Chrysler. It is about saving the UAW, a very large contributor to the Obama campaign. GM and Chrysler NEEDED to go through normal Chapter 7 bankruptcy. They would have had a clean slate and what would have emerged would have been much stronger. Problem is, the whole contract with the UAW would have had to be re-negotiated, not just create “concessions”. This is pure politics, not business. There will be a backlash. US Government is systematically destroying what manufacturing we have in this country (what is left, anyway). And, the US Government is destroying capitalism, as we (used to) know it. No one is exempt from this accusation – from the President, to Congress and down. I fear for future generations, and God help us if we need heavy equipment to fight a war.
The UAW and excessive taxes did the auto companies and DETROIT in and it will get much worse before it gets better.A total change in gov. control must take place.
Needing a new vehicle, I determined I could afford $6000 worth of new car. I researched cars that run well into their 10th year and discoverd Lexus. I went to http://www.autotrader.com and found two in the color I wanted. I sent friends from the two towns to smell the interiors for smoke which was detected in the car from Houston. The Dallas car smelled okay. I flew to Dallas, one way (hello TSA) with $7000 cash in my pocket (again, hello TSA), took a cab to the lot, bought the car and drove it home.
Local Toyota dealer says the car is a cherry. Local tranny shop says the tranny is a baby. Put the tranny cooler on anyway.
Now, my 1996 Lexus ES300 with 205,000 miles and so much more life than anything I’ve ever driven is doing just fine. By the way, this car is powerful enough to haul my Harley on a trailer to Colorado at 75 mph almost all the way.
People, there is life after GM. Consider well cared for used vehicles and pay cash.
GM and Chryslers problems were the fault of both Management and the UAW. The UAW for bargaining for uncompetiitve wages and benefits and the management for giving it to them. That is it in a nutshell. It was pure greed plain and simple on both parts. Chrylser and GM’s hands were tied when the market fell apart. They could not cut workers, plant capacity, etc. without the UAW’s blessing due to contract restrictions. They let the UAW bargain for “jobs banks” that basically raised their fixed costs to levels where the only vehicles they could make money on were the large SUV’s or they needed to produce a higher volume of vehicles than their competitors just to break even. Hence you have the incentives that were constantly offered at the expense of profits just to keep the volumes up to break even. Whomever agreed to paying people for sitting on their butts indefinately was the real genius. When those volumes started to decline they were left with being UNABLE to manage their business. It is not that they could not produce fuel efficient cars, their buiness model does not allow them to do it profitably. It still doesn’t. That is why they will still be bankrupt eventually. The healthcare benefits that these workers recieved were far greater than what the standard that industry in general recieved at no additional cost to the workers. Just look at the last time these guys made a profit. This just didn’t happen because of the financial crisis. They have been uncompetitive, unable to manage their buiness, and unable to cut costs for years. Propping them up with taxpayer dollars is not going to solve that problem. The party is over, the golden goose is on life support and will die a slow death. The foreign auto companies are wounded but the big difference is that they have ALWAYS maintained their ability to manage their business. I read where the UAW has agreed at part of the agreement to not strike for 4 years. Thats great, so in 4 years the companies return to profitablility and we go back to business as usual between the union and management. Good luck on that one. It will be time to make up for lost ground. Sometimes you need a “significant emotional event” to make people step back and look at things differently. Unfortunately government interference has prevented this from happening.
WOW! CAC from michigan! Awesome jawb cunveencing us that not all UAW folks are uneducated. I know its the internet and all, but spell/grammarcheck just a bit for us.
Detroit: A Positive View
I recently visited some folks in Detroit. I was surprised to learn from my in-flight magazine that nearby West Midlands, Mich., is the home of the world-class Dow chemical corporation. I went into the classy Detroit Metro airport and was surprised to here some people on the overhead speaker talking in Asian languages, suggesting that Detroit is a truly international city. I noticed that there are some casinos that were recently built in the city to rival Las Vegas. The Lions football team really stinks, but the Tigers and Pistons are not half bad, and the Red Wings recently won the Stanley Cup. The City of Ann Arbor, which is on the border of the Detroit Metro area and features a lot of high tech businesses in addition to the top-rated public University of Michigan. Within Detroit Metro itself, Oakland County is quite upscale. All of the auto industry has a presence there, including the now-solvent Ford and Toyota and Honda, not just GM and Chrysler. There is a big software company there called Compuware and a leading cancer center, the Karmanos, one of the few such centers in the nation to receive a national cancer center designation by the National Cancer Institute.
Born and raised in the Downriver area, recently moved to NY to follow my job. It is a travesty to see such lines drawn across the face of America.
The environment where I am at is far far different then that of my home, Detroit. Far and few between were the commercials on TV in the D for cars of a foreign persuasion.
Rochester, well, different story. Where 90% of the commercials are geared for the import vehicle. The ratio of foreign vs domestic on the roads are a far cry from where the “American Dream” should be at.
I was born in this country. I will die in this country. I will do all I can to support this country.
Never once will you find me driving a foreign car, no matter where it was built. U.S. soil, foreign soil, does not matter to me. The dollars don’t all stay where they should.
I support my country and I will continue to support the auto makers of this country. The price may be higher. The mileage may be lower. But by goodness the dollars are going where they need to be going.
Home.
Until we realize that manufacturing/selling/owning a car is not the future the problem will remain. Life-styles must change as our world is not one of infinite resources. The future is light rail transportation and pedaling the good old bicycle!!! Sprawling urban society will not last.
2009 American Economy 30% or greater Financial Services Industries (FSI), Manufacturing less than 10%. In 1990 it was the other way around. Is this really where we want to be as a society if The People are really running The Govt and not Wall Street MBA’s? If your not selling something to someone overseas, your not making wealth. Your losing it. It’s very hard to do in manufacturing here though and hard is something FSI doesn’t want to do. They wants easy with insurance. They want to sit back and make 20-40% for doing nothing and have The Govt back them up when it blows up (like Fannie and Freddie, slick setup guys). The housing bubble that suckered all those foriegn investors in and wrecked our real estate values so an average American can’t afford to live anymore is a taste of what’s to come. That’s FSI. Pity we took the low road on manufacturing. What we should have done is placed tarrifs on imports to level the playing field. By raising them UP to our standards and not lowering ourselves DOWN to theirs. I can’t believe you people are running around slapping each other on the back saying that the new wage of $14.00 an hour is a great thing. Suckers. But that’s FSI running things. You place OSHA regulations and a million other safety and other regulations, health costs and legal costs on everything made in the US and what does the FSI guys do? Oh, shut the plant down and go somewhere there aren’t regulations. Instead of saying, if you import a car or whatever, it has to be made in the same regulatory enviroment that ours are, or you get hit with a compensating tarrif that helps out with health care and education and investment. Our financial services “industry” will screw over our own country in a heart beat to make a buck and you see how much power they have in Washington. What did GM get, 20 billion and everyone started screaming bloody murder. What did FSI get for almost destroying the world financial system? How many Trillions by the time it’s over? I’m in Afghanistan and maybe 80% of the rentals the military uses are Toyotas. Must cost a fortune. Fact is it’s not about doing the right thing anymore, it’s about figureing out the system and screwing it for as much money as you can “legally”, wrong and right don’t matter. If you work hard and try and make something your screwed. You have to go to a third world country and hire some poor people at 1.00 per day (which is modern slavery. We don’t keep people locked up in the back yard anymore) to make something to ship all the way back to the US to sell. We need high standards and balance.
GM got complacent in the market 20 years ago….you let japanese automakers get a foothold with your tired boring designs thinking that Americans would always buy American cars. WRONG….you violated our trust, you violated our wallets producing garbage. I have a 2004 Toyota 4Runner with 88k miles on it….its paid off, and I won’t be needing another vehicle for a long time, which allows me to spend money on OTHER things like my family. With a GM vehicle you’re buying another vehicle as soon as you pay it off. My buddy that works at GM has went through two Chevy Tahoes…loaded Tahoes the 50k dollar kind in the time that I’ve owned my 4 Runner. R.I.P. morons….
There are many layers of problems that led to Gm & Chrysler going bankrupt, but the BIG2 are: Products which aren’t desireable (enough) or competitive; and greedy, short-sighted UAW leadership. The money flowing into GM & Chrysler from taxpayers or FIAT won’t matter if these companies can’t build cars people want to buy and have realistic labor costs. I see no hope for Chrysler because they haven’t shown they can build a really good modern vehicle of any type. Gm has shown it can build some good cars (Malibu for example), but they need to build small cars that are better than Hondas, Mazdas, Toyotas, Hyundais & Nissans. Can they do this? We’ll find out. Now that the UAW willown big chunks of these companies maybe Gettlefinger will face reality for a change & get labor rules & costs where they need to be. The city of Detroit is not a place anyone wants to live or work, and the politicians there have failed more than the auto companies. Until that changes, Detroit will not make a comeback.
Working for GM in Michigan has been a privilege. Yes I an an UAW worker and yes I have gone to college. Some of this post are just ridicules. Saying UAW worker can go back to school for 6 years so we can make less money then those who did 6 years of college DUH!!!! Sitting behind a desk demands more money then someone that works with haz mat material–chemicals that can kill you or lifting tire and wheel assemblies (for the college people, that would be 4 per car) over 8 hours,working with stamp press that can crush you,etc…That is what the UAW should be proud of–Safety in the work force. Remember all you non working auto workers, we don’t make the parts,we assemble the cars. Quality is always good when your supplier wants your business but its hard to keep track of quality issues when you use thousands of suppliers. Maybe if the media was as quick to put the foreign recall cars on the front page as they do the American recalls the American people would see that America has improved their quality while Toyota and Honda has declined. People need to get all their facts before saying we (UAW) are treated special then other workers in America. By the way, this lone hourly worker is now doing the work of 4 salary people. I didn’t even ask for a wage increase.
All that I have to say is, given my experience with American cars: I will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, again buy an American car.
If we even exclude the inferior quality…why would anyone want to feed the union parasites???
To all UAW, and all self entitlement lazy “progressives”: after I got laid off in 2001, I want back to school and got another (different) degree; and now, I am back in school, again, 9working on my 3rd degree…So why exactly do you think that you need to earn as much (or more than me), and why, exactly, do you think that you deserve anything but a kick in the a…your whole life you have been nothing but a lazy, ungrateful, greedy…parasite. And now that your host is dead…you even dare to ask me to continue your blood sucking. While I am working full time, attending university full time, and raising my family. All of you deserve everything that you got!!!
There is nothing American about UAW!
Lets put the blame where it belongs the UAW and its greed, and big oil and its ripping off of the consumer, and our politicians for standing idle while stuffing their pockets.
With this new more workable wage structure in place who is going to buy the cars? Of course people who work for their living do not deserve a living wage let alone a comfortable one. That is only for salesboys, marketeers and finance experts.
This country is on a long road down and there is quite a ways to go to hit bottom. Did the unions kill
Detroit? Well, why were the most prosperous years for the auto companies the same years the unions were strongest? At least finally the overly pampered dealers and salesboys finally have to feel a little of the pain they have caused over the years.
The real problem across America is that far, far too large a piece of the pie is going to the people who produce the least. Way, way too much goes into retail and wholesale markups and finance charges. Great fortunes have been made shuffling paper or marking up product and marketeering without producing anything at all. Till we get the finance shysters and marketing whizzes off of our backs the economy will never recover.
Why don’t they just give GM to the
Unions and let them run it without our help! Hmmmmm how long would they last?
For all you “BIGGER” morons who are against anything remotely socialistic
600,000+ jobs lost PER WEEK since Jan 20th – It’s the private sector cutting those jobs instead of executive salaries
Piss poor government healthcare – Private Industry looking for every opportunity to cut and eliminate company health care plans. Soon No one (except executives) will have
company provided health care.
Can you say “Derivatives” and “Credit Default Swaps” – Completely unregulated financial instruments that were allowed to be created and sold by our shadowy “Secondary Market” with no possibility of ever covering the instrument is a downturn. These are insurance instruments to protect mortgage backed securities in the event of a loss of value of the Mortgage securities” this is Fraud.
Skyrocketing energy costs – No National Energy Policy resulting is running our own supplies dry and now relying on foreign oil because private business chose
to ignore developing alternatives because it wasn’t “at the time” profitable?
Michigan – blue state – two massive bankruptcies in 2009.
California – blue state – nearly bankrupt itself.
New York – blue state – also nearly bankrupt.
United States – went blue in the last election – almost certainly headed for a downgrade of its own debt and the catastrophic failure of its Medicaid program.
Anyone detect a pattern here?
After reviewing a few of these comments, there’s a need for a reality check. American made cars (read Big 3) are on par with the quality of foreign cars and have been for decades. Any small differences between the quality of domestic and foreign cars were just that – small. And now, as other writers have written, many American cars surpass the quality of foreign cars. So…quality is a non-issue.
A second issue that has not been widely reported (possibly because the press loves Obama) is the curious fact that Ford has not asked any of it’s dealerships to close. In fact, while GM and Chrysler were paring back dealers like there was no tomorrow (and GM will likely continue doing this for some time), Ford has said it’s very happy with it’s dealerships and is thrilled to have a lot of competition going away. Now this begs the question of why Ford is doing something the government owned and directed entities (read GM and Chrysler) are not. It’s stating to look very much like the government is directing the closure of these dealerships in some attempt to create ‘healthy’ brands. Apparently the most healthy brand right now, Ford, disagrees. So, we’re left with the possible conclusion that the government is calling for much of this turmoil, when it’s likely not even necessary. I could write about the horrors of government run free enterprise all day, but look for more misteps before this is over. Also, it’s curious to note that the folks suffering the most at the hands of government run or directed entities right now are the very people who voted the Democrats into office – union workers. The Republicans couldn’t have killed the unions more effectively if they’d tried! And the most interesting thing – they’ve been given a free pass on this from the press. No articles I’ve seen or read have dealt with this link. It kind of reminds me of Job’s claim to God in the Bible – though you slay me, yet will I praise you!
I am from the Detroit area and have lived here all my life. Very sad. But I think the UAW put our car companies there. Unions started out for the right reason. Then greed stepped in. I believe a person should be paid a decent wage for their work. But when you come in drunk, high on drugs, have someone else clock you out, these people were protected by the unions. They should have been fired..maybe that’s where the quality of the cars went. My suggestion would have been, to give every person that pays taxes a check in the amount of $500,000.00. People could pay their mortgage, buy a car, go on a trip, etc……..instead of giving it to the Banks, Car companies that they KNEW were going down the hill anyway. Seems common sense that people could have fixed the problem……
It’s sad to see Detroit in such economic dire straits, but it’s been a poorly managed city for years (difficult to keep track of the indictments of the corrupt officials). With the U.S. auto carmakers now finally feeling the impact from the combination of poorly-made goods and a phenomenally greedy labor force, Detroit must implement a renaissance of both industry and culture. Pittsburgh and Cleveland have weathered major industry changes and come out the other side; for Detroit to also succeed, it must take deliberate steps to drastically reduce the crime, poverty and filth that sadly now represents that city. The former unionworkers must also give up their enormous sense of entitlement and recognize that their past unreasonable insistences have only led to their current state. Hard work and perseverance are what’s needed — good old-fashioned American values. No more free rides.
I have purchased many GM cars in the past. To buy GM now would be support for OBAMA. I did not vote for him and he is now leading us into the old Jimmy Carter days or worse, to Marxist.
No GM for me thank you. The government does not know how to build and sell cars. Just wait and see for yourself.
If Toyota, Honda, and others can buld cars in the US and stay profitable; how come GM and Chrysler can’t?
Get rid of unions, let the engineers and designers actually design a car instead of the accountants doing it; and get rid of parallel branding. It’s really not that complicated.
It is really unamerican for an individual to say they had rather buy a foreign made car than a government owned GM. We ARE the government. Think about what youre’ saying.
I have honestly thought that the UAW were receiving outrageous wages also, but, the cost of living is so high in that area. You realize that here in the Shoals area, Alabama, Ford wanted to build his (Detroit), he even had sidewalks put in and could never come to an agreement with the city so it never happen. I am not, nor is any one of you that has not had first hand knowledge of the jobs that they do, really justified in any kind of criticism. I was not happy at the announcement of GM’s bankruptcy. I don’t think its fair to all investors and I don’t think debts should be erased. The comments about the trickle down effect are right, it will be enormous.
I think for the city of Detroit, this is going to continue its’ downward spiral into oblivion. Thought not as bad as cities like Gary, IN and other rust belt areas, Detroit has long by synonymous with the auto industry and when you have everything riding on the shoulders of one industry, that’s a recipe for disaster.
As bad as it is for the current workers at GM, Chrysler and eventually Ford, a lot of the blame has to be placed with the recent generations of UAW workers whose selfishness and borderline criminal tactics served as the catalyst for the current state of the U.S. Auto industry.
The actions of the UAW and other unions like it are the reason that the U.S. economy will never fully recover from this meltdown. Hopefully this will serve as a wake-up call to all enterprises that employ union workers, including the U.S. and State governments. The perks and benefits that are currently in place because of union strongholds are crippling the companies/entities that employ them and will ultimately force all of them to make drastic changes in order to survive.
I haven’t bought an American car in decades since they’ve never built one that I’ve wanted. I’ve always bought Toyota, Honda, and BMW.
Please just give me back my bailout tax dollars and let the American car companies go away.
AMERICA IS WHO I AM AND WHAT I AM! I think this is a bunch of planted people writing much of this ignorant rhetoric. None of us have become so ignorant and cold hearted as what I am reading. SORRY TO THOSE behind this ridiculous ANTI AMERICAN FOOLISHNESS, GM will survive! Detroit will survive! GM will emerge as the leaders of the Auto Industry, leaner and smarter. The Government will make money on this investment. I am sorry for all of those that have lost in this. I am most sorry fr any of those harmed that have had to read foolish ignorant opinions that justify the Anti American behaviral patterns that have formed in our own country. I WILL ALWAYS DRIVE AMERICAN, especially now! May the Lord be with us in Detroit and may the universe support America and General motors!
Many of the postings here disparage the quality & reliability of American cars. This is no longer accurate. In general, American cars are actually slightly behind the Japanese in terms of quality & reliability, and ahead of European brands.
Of course, there is fairly wide dispersion among various makes & models. Honda, Subaru and Toyota are all very strong, although not all models from those brands are above average. Other Japanese brands are not as consistently strong as those three. Ford is the strongest of the American brands, with some of their models rivaling the best from Japan. GM is more spotty, with some good products, and some below average. Chrysler is definitely struggling to bring up the rear among American brands. European brands, contrary to popular belief, struggle in quality & reliability ratings. They are more problem prone than American or Japanese cars. On a positive note for European brands, the recent trends are positive, as they have made some improvements.
I base most of my assertions on data from Consumer Reports. That data comes from the real world use of people who own the cars, and I believe is more relevant to everyday drivers than other quality rankings. Although other quality rankings can be useful too. Here’s a link to the current summary of automotive quality & reliability. It’s a good summary, but there’s much more to the story:
American cars do have room to make up in other areas. In general, handling; noise, harshness, vibration; and interior materials need improving. Again, there is wide dispersion among different makes and models in these areas. The reactions of drivers to these characteristics hurt the perception of American car quality & reliability. Of course, past problems with American car quality also drag down today’s perceptions.
Bottom line right now, though, is that in terms of a car you can depend on to perform as intended, the ranking is: 1) Japanese 2) American 3) European, with American being a close second to Japanese.
So, look at the data before commenting on American car quality & reliability. Inform yourself. Things are better than you might think at Ford, GM & Chrysler.
Honda is the most American made car on the market today. GM, in contrast isn’t even close. No one in their right mind is going to purchase a GM vehicle. They are through.
For all you morons that wanted socialistic CHANGE..
600,000+ jobs lost PER WEEK since Jan 20th
10-15% unemployment
Government owned business
Piss poor government healthcare.
Budget deficits as far as the eye can see.
Congressmen/women always being misled.
Skyrocketing National debt
Hyperinflation
Skyrocketing energy costs
Federal sales taxes
America’s best days are behind us, got your goverment job yet??
Mr. Paelicke,
I hope GM engineers like yourself get the opportunity to prove to Americans that you can build quality vehicles and turn this company around.
In case you missed it, Detroit has been changing for many years now. With the unions basically killing the big 3 over the past 20 years, the decline has been gradual. Now, there’a actually hope at the end of this long and ugly tunnel. Autoworkers and manufacturing workers of all types may now be able to revitalize this State, since we’ve now got a workable wage structure in place. $14/hr. – the new benchmark in Detroit for manufacturing, is finally somewhat in line with other States, and more importantly, with overseas markets. Michigan will pay a price for this abrupt correction, however. Gone are the days of autoworker’s cottages up north, and their harleys. The new wage structure will almost certainly also kill the higher end of the housing market and most ‘luxury’ items that many workers could afford in the past. In trade, we get a more stable economy, and something to rebuild out struggling State on. Our wonderful leaders have been preaching the end of manufacturing for many years now, but with new wage and benefit structures, it’s likely to make a strong comeback in the upper Midwest over the next decade. After years of decline, I might be able to see the end of this tunnel!
I believe that the downfall was a 50/50 fault line. 50% was management’s fault for not building cars/suv’s/trucks that are gas “conservative” especially since the competetion has already done so and because of the past problems with the gas embargo of the 1980’s; also, waiting until the company was in such a bad financial situation that they had to borrow money from the government was irresponsible !!
The other fault is with the UAW who kept demanding more and more “perks” under each contract when they already had great wages and benefits……
This will happen again and again until they change the way they do business. Bailing out companies whose business plan to curb cost is to simply close plants is not good business. GM, et al, need to develop a car that is high quality, has good fuel economy and is inexpensive. Until they do that they will always lose out to the foreign auto makers.
I understand the value in helping out such a large company, but it bothers me that my tax dollars are being sent to a company whose products I would never buy. They’re doing it all wrong, and we’re enabling their bad behavior. There needs to be real consequences or there won’t be a real incentive to produce a valuable vehicle.
Blame to go around. UAW, my grandfather said by in 1970s. How do you expect the average worker for buy a car made by people making $15 plus dollars. at the time, we were making 5-6 dollars an hour. It took time, between the UAW and Management, to find a plot to bury GM. Oh, thanks to our caring President, So happy he is a compassionate guy, we are so much better off for the short term. After all, that is still all we as a country think about, short term.
As a native Detroiter, I am horrified to see the ongoing results of economic decline in the city . Once considered ‘the most beautiful city in America’, it is largely being abandoned to poverty and depression. Hard times are not a new story in Detroit. Depression has been building there for almost a decade. And so the decline of Detroit continues.
My strong belief is in the innovative spirit. The area is perfectly set up for resurgence, and is only waiting for the insight and motivation of those with ideas and the drive to accomplishment. I believe in Detroit, and southeast MI and MI overall. We are not better or worse than any other city, just far more strapped. Autos cannot save us, but ingenuity can.
In the event of another world war who is going to be manning the asblemy lines to make the needed war materials . do you think for one minute that the chineese people are going to man the american asblemy lines when the u.s.a goes to war with china or some other foreign power i think not.
Until the American auto industry can start running their business properly and matching the quality of their foreign competitors, I will continue to buy imports. As a consumer, why would I buy an inferior product from a company who can’t keep themselves in business?
Now, yes, it does suck for the people who are employed by these companies. But, that bailout money could have been used to provide new jobs for these workers instead of putting it into a failing company who might end up in the same position years down the line.
It is sad the taxpayers have to bailout the auto workers who have already been getting more than they deserve. The workers have been holding these companies hostage for a long time, bleeding them dry. After a while of great perks, great pensions, and great salaries a company will lose its competitive edge and ability to pay such great perks, salaries and pensions. The taps have run dry and detroit has had to borrow from the taxpayer to keep their perks going. It is sad. That is why Michigan is going down hill, what business wants to invest in a state with overpaid and over entitled workers.
The biggest effect this bankruptcy will have will NOT be on GM, but on the thousands of individuals who held GM bonds who lost everything in this bankruptcy. The executives will still get paid. The union will still exist. GM will still sell cars. But retirees and other investors who placed their trust in GM’s ability to NOT run the company into the ground will lose everything they’ve invested in this company. (I am not a GM investor, nor will I be affected by GM’s bankruptcy….. I am lucky.)
It’s about time we held these multi-millionaire incompetants responsible for their actions. I’m not just talking GM. I’m talking Bear Sterns… Enron… Worldcom… Citi… Countrywide… Fanny Mae… Freddie Mac… They walk away with millions while everyone else gets left with nothing. How about the SEC starts prosecuting fraud of this nature in line with the punishments for murder, as they are destroying the lives of people who trusted them.
I am surprised at how many people think the auto workers are getting a free ride — do you realize that Japan has socialized medicine and a social security type network for retirees? All in all, the higher pay rate for American autoworkers compensates for what the Japanese government already provides for its people. In addition, Japan has unfairly pegged the yen so it’s companies make money overseas…and the quality of many American autos, especially Ford, now is better than Toyota or Honda. So think about where your money goes when you buy a car – to the US or to Japan!
Back to the question at hand – how will this affect Detroit? My home value has already fallen 40% and it is still on the way down. It’s a beautiful 2400 sq. ft house well maintained — I live in the burbs. I cannot afford to leave with minimal equity in my home.
Pay rates at the big 3 and the auto suppliers have dropped considerably. So in addition to having falling house values, most of us have seen a 20% decrease in wages. I am now in my 3rd position having been laid off twice in this economy.
Now while the autos are having their issues, so is the city. Detroit Public Schools are basically bankrupt as well and poorly managed; the mayoral’s office is a mess (and hopefully will be fixed soon)… and Granholm is a day late and a dollar short on getting new industry.
But Michigan is a great state! The people are wonderful.. and it is home. We are survivors and we will overcome this challenge. No doubt about it!
I have always bought America in support of Detriot. But that all stops today. No Government Motors vehicle for me..
I won’t ever, EVER buy a GM or Chrysler now that it’s union and government-owned. I think a lot of other people feel the same way. Why can’t these companies simply fail right now instead of wasting ridiculous amounts of taxpayer dollars?
Oh, and UAW workers — maybe it’s time to go to school, learn something, and work harder if you want to get ahead in the world instead of relying on the union for protection of your mediocrity.
Look, the only truly valuable skill in modern car manufacturing is the engineering – designing the factories, tooling, and the cars that they create. Engineers have even designed robots that are faster, more reliable, more consistent, and cheaper than so-called “skilled” auto workers but the UAW fights against the loss of jobs – really the loss of dues-payers – that such innovation creates. Face facts: Assembly-line workers in the 21st century are just as interchangeable as the parts they assemble, with about as much skill as a Starbucks barista and they need to be paid accordingly. Few if any auto workers today rate anywhere near the pay the UAW extorts; they have become economic parasites and they will continue to suck the life out of Detroit as long as they can.
Mr. Melvin Gray, Gross Ignorance = GM & UAW! Many white collar jobs that are not unionized that have been lost, but you don’t hear those unemployed people crying like the UAW workers. UAW workers please take your lumps and move on like the rest of us hard working Americans who are not part of unions, who learn a new trade/college degree and search for another a new job when they become unemployed.
The US Taxpayer does not owe the UAW or GM anything. Please stop blaming the government or who got more bailout on Wall Street…start blaming yourself first for having an inferior product line and choosing to work for a company that produced an inferior product for years.
Good day sir!
Plenty of blame to go around…all I can say is if my wages had kept pace with the price of Detroit cars, my life would still be great! Management, UAW…all to blame.
I was a Chevrolet dealer mechanic for many years and at times was amazed at the number of failures of various stuff under warranty. How many bad fuel injectors, ECM’s, and fuel pumps does it take before the word on the street gets out that the cars can’t be trusted. I was at one point all GM, but would never own one of their plasticky junkers. I would really like to get home after going to the store, and with a GM fuel pump, I run a high risk of being stranded. Absolute junk.
IN MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION THE ONLY ONES TO BLAME OF THE AUTO INDUSTRY’S FAILURE IS THE MANGAMENT OF GM & CHRYSLER IF THE UPPER MANGEMENT HAD EXCERISED SOME JUDGMENT BACK WHEN THE FOREIGN AUTO COMPANY’S STARTED TO BUILDING CHEAPER MORE COMPACT CARS WITH BETTER GASLOINE MILEAGE GM & CHRYSLER WOULDN’T BE IN THE SHAPE IT IS IN TODAY THIS IS JUST A GOBALIZATION OF THE INDUSTRY AN UNION BUSTING FOR CHEAPER WAGES AN CONCESSSION FROM THE U.A.W. WITH REGARDS TO BENEFITS & WAGES AN UTLMATELY POOR MANGEMENT CAPABILITY’S TO NOT BE ABLE TO FORCAST THEIR OWN AUTO INDUSTRY TRENDS BETTER
union and big ckeck , you cant run a copmany with everyone making the large paydays ,its there on down fall . big ckecks will kill any Company !made the cars cost go up . Ifeel for them ,but they did it them self. taxpays have to pay .
HAs any bankruptcy ever killed us? IF it has please tell me jetsthree@yahoo.com. BEcause from where I stand, We are still alive after countless big bankruptcies.
Also That guy who said 5 million jobs… well you know what if Mcdonals went bankrupt and closed millions of jobs would be lost to, and millions of people left hungry. I know upper management for a dsesigner in Detroit, he said that is bull, his company sent out memos talking about it. If… IF they dissappearded other car companies would move right on in. Take the factories, use the dealers… Please don’t project any more American Ignoranc, and since their job is so hard… lets see them work on a farm in 100 degree weather, or pave roads with hot blacktop in a heat wave… or maybe, just maybe they should try teaching a bunch of bratty noisey kids that they can’t hit. The UAW is a bunch of B.S. It is called Supply and Demand. They is a massive supply of auto works, meaning the demand is down, meaning that wages, like the price of everything would go down with lower demand. No matter what, that is how it should work, not we want 30 dollars an hour, plus when your people get laid off pay them for up to a year, plus add on health coverage, plus thios and that. What you can’t afford it? Oh well we will go on strike. It is total B.S.
The plight of the American Auto worker today is the last giant dieing gasp of the American Industrial worker. We somehow got into a situation where companies sacrificed all for short term stock value, being beholding first to their share holders, then the bond holders, then the government, then the consumer and no one ever seemed to think that there was every any obligation to the employees.
Long term viability was sacrificed for the sake of good quarterly numbers. Too many cars were sold. The companies borrowed money and became totally dependent on steadily increasing sales.
Realistically impossible.
One of the few and dim silver linings in this is that with the loud and obvious failure of the last true large “in house” industry, we will be forced to change our ways. Perhaps we will start building based on needs, not buying based on advertising. Perhaps we will let our dollar move against other currency for the sake of balancing the value of labor rather then the sake of company profits and government borrowing.
Perhaps we will “get” that capitalism is a tool, not the end goal.
The re-structuring of G.M. and Chrysler through bankruptcy protection will not benefit Detroit. G.M., Chrysler and Ford will all emerge as leaner, more competitive, global players in the auto industry. Bankruptcy will force these companies to negotiate contracts that are economically viable in todays market. The “reemergence” of these companies will come at the expense of the suppliers, stock holders and workers. The BIG THREE had the opportunity to make these changes in decades past. What they lacked was the will. The common misconception is that as the Auto Industry goes, so goes Detroit. Back in the “BIG TRUCK AND SUV MEANS BIG MONEY” period, the Big Three were very profitable. Detroit remained in a death spiral while the profit taking happened. The Big Three did invest some of the profits into new, modern manufacturing facilities. Unfortunately, those facilities were built in other countires resulting in job losses in the region that have not been recovered. (Thank you NAFTA)
What I find most disturbing about this whole situation can be described in one word. Apathy. People should take a long look at Detroit as an example of what will happen to the rest of our country as the manufacturing base is decimated, rather than saying “Well, they had it comming”. Auto sales will rebound. G.M., Ford and Chrysler will return to profitability. Neither of these events will “save” Detroit because the cars and trucks are now made elsewhere. This apathy for one of the largest segments of our economy is disturbing.
Please take a moment between rounds of kicking Detroit while they are down, to think about your own situation. Please use them as an example of what lies ahead if changes are not made.
The failure of GM is symptomatic of the same goals that caused the failure of the financial industry: the pursuit of short-term returns over long-term health. If GM (& the financial institutions, as well) had taken the long view in their strategic planning (really, three years is strategic?) then they would have seen that the very decisions yielding short-term results were those that would doom the legacy of the company.
Hey Melvin Gray.
I have to tell you after reading what you posted; you are dead wrong! This isn’t about losing jobs and hurting families; it’s about getting this country back in shape. There is too much overhead in the auto companies; that’s why they cannot compete. No one should be bailed out; not the banks, not the companies and not any individuals either.
If a company isn’t productive enough to hold its own weight, the company is useless and must die on its own accord; otherwise it is just one big welfare company. This is what a recession is; the economy rebalancing itself. Sure, jobs will disappear, but they will reappear somewhere else where there is more efficiency.
The auto companies failing is long overdue! This needs to happen; and it wouldn’t have ever happened if companies were never bailed out by the government in the past.
You may not like this because you work in that sector; you may see it as an attack on your family, but it’s not. By bailing out those companies with taxpayer funds, you are hurting not only other taxpayers, but our children, grandchildren and future taxpayers that have to pick up the tab.
The unions destroyed the auto industry, so what better way to fix it than to give the unions more control! If I were a debtor of GM who got pushed behind the government and unions in this bankruptcy, I would sue to force dissolution of GM. Ford did not take any bailout money, and has the opportunity to be the salvation of the US auto industry. Let GM and Chrysler go bye-bye and take their over zealous unions with them!
Does anyone realize the one thing the gov’t hasn’t done is analyze the loan money interms of investments to create future jobs ?? Bailing out failed Chryler and GM to save current jobs just sells out the future, and hurts thsoe companies prepared to expand in the US market: Ford, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc.
The gov;t claims they plan to sell GM to private investors in 2012-3. Exactly who will have the money to buy GM, assuming it is worth something, perhaps Chinese, middle eastern or Indian investors ? If all we do is waste federal money to see GM become a foreign owned company, we do nothing but hurt the US in the long run.
Better to have provided Ford $10-15B in low interest loans to accelerate their expansion and provide incentives for Toyota, Honda and Nissan to build more in the US and create jobs. You would be more likely to see your moeny returned than what we will be getting from the Chrysler and GM bailouts.
Amen! to Gary Paelicke, Saline Mich
Will say more when I get done workin my usual 10 hour day here in the D! Yes, the D! home to the toughest and smartest. I would like to see some of you try to survive here.
By the way, keep enjoying the media slight of hand. Perhaps you should tally up the billions sent to banks compared to the relative pittance devoted to Detroit automotive. It’s a distraction folks. Your deficit didn’t go to Detroit and the problems didn’t start here.
By the way, during the next war make sure you place your tank orders with China early so they show up in time. I am sure they will still honor the contract even if they don’t approve of our actions.
My first car was a 1986 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme. It was made in Canada. My next car was a 1992 Saturn, a great car that was destroyed in an accident in 1994. And by then, Saturn had already changed and was no longer the company I had known in 1992. My next car was a 1999 Toyota Corolla, made in California. It has been an excellent car, and it has almost 200,000 miles.
What is more American, an Oldsmobile made in Canada by Canadian workers or a Corolla made in California by American workers?
GM has created their own problems by failing to learn how to make fuel-efficient cars during the glory days of wasteful, but extremely profitable, SUVs and trucks. They deserve what they get. Unfortunately, auto workers and many others are caught in the middle.
It is somewhat sad that GM is going bankrupt. As an Engineer who used to work for ATT/Lucent and manufacture American goods I tried really hard to buy American cars and American products. I grew up in a GM household but they lost me as a customer forever in 2002 when I bought into the “Professional Grade” advertising. I paid $36K for a GMC SUV that could not go more than a week at a time without a trip to the dealer. Sure the Service Advisors were very polite and apologetic, but I don’t want nice service advisors, I want reliable vehicles. I now drive a Honda and a Nissan. I could not tell you if either brand’s service advisors are nice and polite because I never had to take them into service for anything (both vehicles have over 100k miles, I do my own preventive maint) I’m sure the UAW has a good bulk of the blame but GM Engineers and Management also have to take their share of blame. BTW, both my Nissan and Honda were built in the good old USA, so I know American Auto workers can build a quality product at a competitive price when given the opportunity.
I wonder how Melvin Gray can attack the Bush administration regarding the middle class when he lowered the tax rate while in office.
Obama wants to put the largest tax increase ever on the middle class, the producers as Melvin Gray put it, by creating Cap & Trade, which is just a tax on everything.
I’d also like to add that you are not a producer, GM is a producer, you are a worker.
The fate of the auto industry and the other debacles such as banking, insurance, etc. is somewhat due to very poor accounting standards. The American rules based standards just get gamed and the results are meaningless.
GM has been selling cars for less than cost for many decades. With zero percent financing, lease sales through a captive finance subsidiary, fleet sales to captive car rental affiliates, the wonder is that it lasted so long. The whole thing was so distorted with improper transfer prices, nobody had a clue as to what the real economic value was.
When the legal, accounting and finance types run a manufacturing business, it has no future. GM is a marketing, design and production enterprise. The executive committee should reflect those areas. When GM focusses its talents on changing the political process, well they are in the right place now – Government Motors.
The European accounting standards are less rules based and more principles based. The auditors must disclose all material facts – these phony profits from improper transfer prices would have been disclosed and the stakeholders would have seen long ago how flimsy these firms were.
For the latest nonsense, look in Ford and Hyundai’s financial statements for the reserves they have provided for their ‘insurance’ against job loss by the purchaser. When you find it in publicly available statements, please post it.
My PhD is in economics and finance, so I have been watching these firms since the 1980s.
Oh please, blame all of GM’s problems on the UAW. If it wasn’t for the UAW, a lot of Americans wouldn’t have made the money that they did. The UAW kept the benefit levels up a lot higher. If you have never been a part of a union, than the real reason you want the unions gone is jealousy! We come from generations of GM workers and are proud of it. We also all worked hard for the money we earned and the benefits we received in some of the most dirty and stressful jobs. Every company makes bad decisions. The real problem why GM has gone under is the lack of sales. The lack of sales is because American doesn’t have the jobs here anymore. All the American jobs have been sent overseas. If American’s don’t have jobs, how can they buy cars? The other major factor in GM going bankrupt and Chrsyler too, is the high cost of energy. When you have to pay $3-4/gallon at the pump, then you sit on your old car and make do. Come on America, put the blame where it is due.
Hey Melvin, It sure is my right to judge your wages and income when I am being asked to spend my money on bailing out a company, which in my opinion, you are partially personally responsible for putting it where it is today.
Who told you that the path to becoming rich is to do a manual labor job such as putting mufflers on a car? That is the person you should be mad at.
You blackmail companies into inflated wages and then when the company fails you act like the victim and then expect the public to bail you out with their tax dollars? You have the nerve to be upset at us because we’re mad and judging your wages?
People who went to college for 6 years to become specialized in some highly difficult career make less money than people who place mufflers on cars at GM and then they retire with pensions while the person who spent $250,000 in college education to do a specialized job has to handle his own retirement needs? That makes sense?
If you want higher wages than learn a skill that demands higher wages.
I will never purchase a GM automobile so long as it is run by the government. I’d rather buy foreign.
What this means to Detroit is hard to calculate. The job losses are only the tip of the iceberg, the trickle down effects will be severe, very severe. Bo one really knows, they can spout off and speculate, but no one knows. GM and Chrysler, on the other hand, will survive, albeit with the Taxpayer Lifelines (our wallets), but they are both destined to become – and remain, Niche Players in the auto industry IMO.
The Big Three have been sleeping for the past 20 years. During the bankruptcy procedure of Chrysler in 1978 when Iacocca made it possible to survive with the help of $ 1.5 bn Federal loan. In other words the handwriting was on the wall for the American automobile industry. But nobody in Detroit seem to listen to the market whether it was design, quality or guzzler engines. Market share of the Big Three was dropping with a certain consistency and nobody in Detroit acted.
And now the taxpayer’s have to pay for 20 years of incompetent management of the Detroit automobile makers. Union, healtcare and generous pensions did the rest.
The combination Chrysler with Fiat is bankrupt before it even started. Fiat is known in Europe to manufacture the worst car needing repairs and perform badly in crashtests. Fiat can only sell its cars by offering attractive leases. Fiat’s technology and innovations are of non-existence. Also in the field of car manufacturing or management Fiat cannot make a meaningful contribution to Chrysler. So combining 2 bad companies sure doesn’t make one good one. As a result this will be an expensive exercise for American taxpayer’s.
In addition let’s not forget the co-operation between Fiat and GM which cost GM ultimately $ 2 billion to get out of this deal.
So President Obama get out of this deal and save Billions in taxpayer’s money.
Detroit cannot be saved by Fiat or with more Federal bailout money. Detroit has to start all over again and that means at it’s American roots based on American ingenuity and competent leadership.
GM’s problems could only have been solved by a Chapter 7 filing – liquidation, not Chapter 11. The good pieces would have been purchased by going concerns and private equity, the good cars would have continued to be built, and the efficient plants would have continued to operate. The less desirable pieces would either be scrapped or sold for salvage, and the lenders and shareholders would have received a true net market value. We (the people) have ended up propping up via Chapter 11 “reorganization” a company who’s management and unions could not run it effectively in the past. These essentially same people will have little incentive to make it work in the future – because – hey – the “government” will just step in again. Add to that medling by politicians and the entire venture is absolutely doomed to failure, just as other socialist ventures have been in the past (see almost any company run by the Soviets). It may just be that this action by the “policy makers” will finally cause a new revolution in America fueled by the anger of the general populace at the looting of their hard earned money.
As a the owner of a real estate company in Detroit, I can tell you that this may be the knockout punch. We have already been hammered for three years by banks redlining our city and refusing to lend on property in Detroit. We have watched our property values fall at an even greater rate than the rest of the country as banks got flooded with our tax dollars. This will undoubtedly be another excuse for Banks to label us as a “severe declining market” and further discriminate against Detroit businesses and borrowers.
People who post comments about Detroit and the auto industry,such as robert w.sparks, are making comments out of gross ignorance and gross lack of compassion, I’ve worked for G.M. for over 30 yrs, this guy has no idea what the auto workers has given up in the yrs I’ve worked for this company, nor do he know what these auto companies are able to produce, this ignorance about what the UAW should have done,sounds like a garbage collector commenting on the best way to fly a jombo jet! he does not have a glue of what he is talking about, buy the way, in his heartless comments, it should be known that as many as 5,000.000 jobs could be effected with the failure of the american auto industry, and it might be said that the way that washington is handeling the auto industry vs the banks, that had a big big hand in this whole mess is a shame before God! who was handed billions of our tax dollars, much much more than the auto companies, without rules, Those who make comments on other peoples way of income and the effects it could and will have on their families, should first put themselves in their places, because it appears that something humane is missing about you! and something else to think about, if you realy want to learn to be smart on how our economy prospers, it;s the middle class that keeps it going, without the middle class pay rate and spending the rich and powerful falls, so this whole thing falls back on the bush administration’s attack on the middle class of 8 yrs. If Mr. sparks of Long Beach Ca. was as smart as he suppose, then he would know that the bottom line does not fall on the UAW, but the Bush administration”s attack on those who spend and keep our economy going, the middle class! so know this ” It’s The Middle Class And The Rich Working Together That Works! ” Mr Bush and his administration upset our economy balance, by catering to the rich and attacking middle class and their wages, which in a since broke the camels back. President Obama is handeling this automotive situation in the wrong manor, this is a politcal dubble standard, that costing thousands of jobs, and hurting thousands of families, and destroying communities, he should be building jobs and families instead! Mr Obama has done alot things right, but not in this case.
Let’s see – Honda, Nissan, Toyota, BMW and Mercedes all operate profitable plants in the US. They have a superior work force that is proud of their jobs and a friend of the companies. The companies are the pride of the communities they are a part of.
In Detroit, we have an overpaid workforce, with an entitlement mentality and benefits that have broken the companies. Our president gives full support to e UAW and all it has brought to the table. One of his favorite phrases is “greedy companies”
Where does it look like the US is heading?
As an engineer, I have watched the manufacturing base rapidly fade away with full government support. It is now gone and gone forever.
Unfortunately, most of the time an organized bankruptcy or bailout does little or nothing to change the years of encrusted corporate culture that is prevalent in old school American big industry. These attitudes and behaviors are widespread in the management, union labor, professional labor, customers and the public. Bailouts do nothing to change this except further cripple the entry of new competitive thinking into the marketplace
i’ve lived in the area some years ago and from the factory workers to engineers where soaking it dry for a long time a now crying about there own demise.
I truly don’t care if GM failes after bankruptcy. They lost me as a customer in 1989, thanks to the garbage cars they produced as still do. Now I have to support this POS company as a tax payer. The UAW makes my skin crawl!! I am sure the UAW will help sink this company again in the future.
One thing really stands out about the present siuation, both at GM and at Chrysler. The Obama administration has been preaching Jobs, Jobs, Jobs… American jobs. Yet a ton of our BailOut money has been used to shore up two companies who are jettisoning jobs left and right. What’s wrong with that picture?
How about we ask how the bankruptcy will effect the political climate? Are people finally going to wake up and see that the “bailouts” just wasted 30 billion of our dollars and if they had just let the free market do what it does normally then this bankruptcy would already be in the past and the taxpayers wouldn’t have foot the bill for 30 billion dollars?
The UAW is 75% responsible for the mess the auto industry is in. When people who put mufflers on cars are making $90/hr and then retire with a pension based on that rate, the company cannot succeed.
The government is responsible for the other 25% due to their ridiculous standards forcing them to produce vehicles that will never be profitable.
Will the country or the government learn any lessons? It appears not as the approval ratings stay the same and we impose more restrictions to cause them to make even more cars people won’t buy.
If you look @ GM Record they have been losing money for several years, before the recession even started, you can not pay your workers twice what honda & toyota pay & hand out big bonases & expect to compete in the world market, its all mismanegment on auto companys part & uaw. I am sure there are many workers in auto industry that would take less per. hr. & work a few more hours a week to save there job rather than send it over seas, they can come out better thru this with the right management, but will they ??? time will tell @ the expense of the tax payer
This is not just a Detroit problem. It will impact millions of workers in dozens of states and several countries. New Orleans is coming back, so will the City of Detroit and the citizens of Michigan. It may take a while, but we’ll be back.
Sad to see this happen, but not unexpected nor undeserved. For years GM management has practiced a Head in the Sand mentality, and it finally catches up with them. But not only should management been changed but ALSO the Board of Directors should have been sent packing!! It all happened on their watch, or lack of watch.
The auto industry (and others) have reaped what they have sown: specifically,uncompetitive wages and benefits, shoddy products until forced by international competition to improve them and a myriad of issues that snowballed to those unwilling to have the foresight to see the point of no return, i.e., bankruptcy. Perhaps this will serve as a wake up call to other comapnies and industries that to stay viable and competitive in today’s global market, products need to be of superior quality, at affordable prices, with the highest level of service to the consumer. Nothing less in this day and age will do.
I had no idea I wanted to work more and be taxed more to own car companies, banks, insurance companies, credit card companies & whoever else the government feels is politically swallowable for our money to be sent to.
What is amazing is how casually America treats its manufacturing base and how no one has any clue on how to handle UAW! Let UAW and all its benefits go before you proceed into bankrupcy, start all over. As a recent immigrant, I can assure you that an America that does not manufacture will only make itself and its people miserable. And there are not too many “knowledge worker” jobs around. If Auto nurtured a large manufacturing base, it needs to be sustained. A GM with all the legacy UAW healthcare costs is not sustainable. The foreign companies will kill GM, if either US does not impose a tariif on imports or provide GM a level playing field.
Why put UAW over everything else? Rid US of the high costs healthcare operations.
I am saddened that the average American is letting all this happen. Sorry, if I have a flip burgers, I would rather do it in India! Atleast a doctor visit will cost me a $1 there! And I would get the similar quality Indian doctors out there as I get here.
US is handing over its jobs, wealth and prosperity to China and India, while allowing its corporate sector to earn billions in the process. Who is standing up for me the suburban middleclass guy that pays over $60K a year in income, sales and property taxes?
Because obama put his greedy hands on this issue, GM will never come back. Unless the GM cars cost 1/10th the price of foreign cars, I’ll never buy a GM car.
My wife and I both grew up in the Detroit area. We are both highly educated and live out of state. We would love to move back to MI but where would we work? The Detroit area’s problems are much bigger than Chrysler and GM. If there are no opportunities for young professionals, there is no future for the area. If you were going to start a business, would Detroit even be in your consideration set? Detroit has been run by self-serving, despicable people since I was born. The city council is a joke and they blame their problems on the suburbs, which are the only nice part of the metro area. The town is run by a UAW entitlement mentality and bankruptcy will only be effective if it can rid the city of it. What is going to stop the UAW from striking in five years once GM is out of the fire? Obama did a great job of prolonging the inevitable so he can show his UAW supporters that he at least tried, although anyone with any business sense knew Chrysler and GM would go bankrupt anyway. The people in Detroit need to take accountability for their mistakes but they never will and this is the reason that Detroit will never rebound.
‘Anything you can do I can do better!’ Who wrote that song anyway? Was it an American? If so, we have the right idea, but the wrong mentality. It takes more than arrogance to get a job done right. In order to price competitively with the auto-industries of the rest of the world, American car companies need to lower their operating costs: i.e. how much they pay their workers. The fat has got to be cut, and it will be painful. Dieting always is. Ask the Germans, they did it, and are now one of the most competitve exporters in the world. We, America, have to PROVE that we can do better, not just take it for granted, as if it’s a God given right. America needs to buy less and sell more. Lowered costs and better quality are the way to do that. I am not going to buy junk, ‘American made’ or not.
GM still has a lot to offer, it just needs to change it’s good ol’ boy attitude and move on. Times change, and creative destruction means two type of companies: the creators and the destroyed. GM has a lot of opportunity to be a creator, and needs to focus on growing in other markets, not just selling in the US. One of the most popular brands of car in China is the Buick, and China isn’t done growing. But Buick needs to be able to compete with lean, mean, and quickly improving Chinese auto-makers to stay that way. GM has needed to let the arrogance go for years now. Too bad it had to be this way.
When considering the outcome, who would you rather have running the auto industry? The government or the UAW? We’ve seen what motivates the UAW, what seems to be motivating the government is keeping the auto industry alive. In Detroit, where there’s money, corruption follows, but if TRUE oversight of the use of tax dollars happens on the part of the government, they SHOULD come out stronger in the long run. Go Red Wings!
If I were living in Detroit, I’d pack my bags and leave. The weight of the taxes alone will drive many out as the city tries to continue to support their large social welfare programs. Where will the revenue come from to maintain the city? Or for that matter the State of Michigan? Face it, the reputation of Detroit as a city full of crime and poverty is well deserved. Opportunity has been shrinking for years there. I lived in Toledo, basically a Detroit suburb, and have not seen two cities in such desparate need of a mind altering, paradigm shifting collapse to shake their residents to their core. So many people live in filth, generational poverty, and drug infested neighborhoods. They are supported, by tax dollars that came from the auto industry. Its time for everybody to get their butt back to work, because quite frankly, nobody can afford 30% of the population sitting on their keisters at home, unemployed, smoking crack. Yet Detroit has been able to do that for 30 years. Great Mayor Kwami Kilpatrick was a fine pick by a wonderful voting population. Detroit was in trouble long before this.
I am a GM engineer who grew up in the midwest, so am naturally biased.
However I am amazed by the hubris and cocky attitude of many of the folks who comment on the problems of GM. It’s Schadenfreude. You feel you are not affected so you’re pleased that this company that provided a good living for so many people has fallen on hard times. Sure enough, the UAW took advantage of a good thing for far too long, and GM management made mistakes too. Some of our vehicle designs can be criticized as obvious mistakes, but no one in the industry is immune from those, not even the precious Toyota and Honda. So now the Government owns us and we’ll be even more useless in your minds. Why don’t you open your eyes and give us a chance. GM has great people and a lot of technical talent. People who deride us have to criticize the entire American system. We have allowed too much engineering and manufacturing strength to be sent overseas, and now we are all paying the price but many are too proud to admit it. States are struggling, educational and medical institutions are starting to feel the stress. If we don’t change our policies and stand up for ourselves we will see a USA that is a second class nation in 10 years or less. In terms of global economic power and average standard of living others are passing us. The selfishness of our society is doing us in, and we have to go back to working for the good of all, not just the well to do among us.
Today is a sad note for America. 100 Years of greatness lost due to mismanagement, corporate greed, government “intervention”, and the biggest reason GM is filing, the good old UAW.
Unions had their place years ago, and they were definatly needed. Today, they aren’t. They need to be completly disbanded and employers need to step up to the plate to cover some benefits.
Instead, this country keeps voting for Democrats who want more unions, more handouts, and more freebies for those who “don’t think they need to work”.
Government motors, lower standard of living to “stay competitive”…
One must note also that while Bush did give out some TARP money, Obama spent more in handouts in his first 100 days than Bush’s first 4 years.
Move. I never understood why everyone was so concerned about Detroit in this whole situation. This is about the company and the UAW which brought this upon themselves. Any smart business person could see that the union was destroying the company but no CEO had the balls to step in and fix the problem. There are jobs all around the nation (even the world for that matter), so get up and go get a new job. Many employers are offering on the job training, just because you had a crappy union job your whole life doesnt mean you cant change.
Too little, too late, too bad for GM & Chrysler? Hang in there Ford!! You will pick up your domestic competitors market share via consumers who proudly ‘Buy American’. Regardless of the outcome for GM/Chrysler, I will be heading to a Ford dealership for my next vehicle purchase. Partly due to the fact that they did not shamelessly fill their coffers with tax dollars to make up for their inability to effectively operate the company. See ya soon, Ford!!
Detroit as a City is already severely depressed. Chrysler doesn’t even headquarter there anymore, and manufacturing is limited to models that will probably be pulled. GM does more, but even their presense is limited. Yes, I think the Tax Base will be hit, but with so much pulled out of there already in the past 30 years, the impact will not be as great with these two Bankruptcies.
I’m not from Detroit, but this is my observation based on what I have read.
They should have been taken through a normal bankruptcy process from day one. Now we have two companies that are propped up and owned by the government that will be producing the cars that the government wants them to make. The unions were taken care of to pay them back for the huge campaign contributions. The taxpayers are still out 50 billion from GM and 7 Billion from Chrysler. The continued blatent fleecing of the American taxpayer continues. That money could have been better spent having the Pension Guarantee Corporation take over the pensions and let the court handle the reduction in wages and benefits and they would have emerged much more competitive without government influence with the ability to produce cars that people actually might want. This is a disaster that will end with both companies still bankrupt or sold off in 5 years. Lets be real, the government cannot even run itself. As for Detroit, well it died a long time ago. Too many years of corrupt government that its residents continue to allow and elect has fleeced the residents of their services, tax base and any hope of revival. The city government and council is full of a bunch of corrupt mental midgets. Their is a wall between the suburbs and the city and the city prefers it that way. What you are left with is a desolite barren lanscape of what once was one of the most beautiful cities in the world. Its a shame. I do business in the city all the time and it is reminiscent of what Europe looked like after world war II. It is the only city I have ever been in where you actually have to search hard to find any good areas that remain. Sorry for being so blunt, but I call them like I see them.
You folks really make me laugh. Everyone hates government interference. Yet these very same people who decry a lack of “market discipline” are the first in line with their hands out when the going gets rough. They can dish it out, but can’t take the hard knocks.
Wall Street made very dangerous bets on risky derivatives with other people’s money. Their bets failed miserably. When the house of cards fell, the ran to their Uncle Sam for 700 billion in help. Whatever happened to “facing the music and taking blame where blame is due.”
Hypocrites, one and all!
Here’s an interesting question for you..With the lowered labor costs associated with the bankruptcy, are the Chev, Caddies etc. prices going to reflect the lowered costs to produce (LOL)..What the Fed and US Industry generally are saying is that the American worker is going to have to accept a lowered standard of living so that the US can remain “competitive”. Yet I am still confused. We are supposed to be the principle consumer for the world. If we accept a lowered standard of living, who is going to buy all the stuff the world wants to sell us?
At first I was very skeptical about the whole situation, and quite frankly, scared. The future of America’s middle-class started with the domestic automakers. They helped during both world wars, and kept a stable market during the great depression. Do I think all this nets a government handout. No. Lets face it, any company that bings out the Aztec should thoroughly tarred and feathered. Do I drive domestic. Absolutely. That’s because people in general don’t understand how basic economics work. Many of the people, who chant “Let them go” don’t fully understand GM’s place as corporate and industrial superpower here in North America. You must have a industrial powerhouse to operate properly in a global economy. And I think its all to easy to acquire a “herd mentality” in respects to many peoples view of the domestic auto-makers. BUT, if they were to file a chapter 7 liquidation, our financial sectors would suffer a new depression far more severe than the great depression. I just hope this all goes to plan. Because we’re all going to lose our marbles if doesn’t’. And we all know, nothing ever goes to plan.
Today….But for Ford, the American Auto Industry is officially DEAD… The government now owns it. Government ownership and meddling is a one way ticket to Hell for anything it touches. We now have another AMTRACK…no service, lousey product, disaster upon disaster, and a never ending flow of taxpayer money to keep the Auto Corpse alive for the UAW to continue stealing money and voting for Democrats…..American Free Enterprise and the Auto Industry…RIP.
The UAW could have made these concessions years ago and they weren’t smart enough to do it. They bankrupted their own companies out of greed and stupidity and now we see the result of what happens when the tail wags the dog. They have no further to look than themselves when it comes to the desolation of Detroit. There are a lot of Americans who build cars in this country for Subaru, Honda, Toyota, and BMW and isn’t it funny how we never hear a peep out of those folks.
Whatever GM and Chrysler does at this point is too late. They can come up with innovative products and “wow’ designs – but they won’t sell. Why? Because the competition – Toyota and the rests of their Japanese relatives – don’t stand still. Theirs is continuous improvements and innovation and better pricing as well. Ford might survive.
I think bankruptcy helps Chrysler and GM reset agreements and get out of contracts that it made but can no longer afford to support. It leaves the small players holding the bag for bad decisions. However, in the case of the banks the little guys were ok because of FDIC. What a bunch of crooks.
Bankruptcies helped the American Steel industry compete on the global scale by reducing labor costs. I am hopeful the bankruptcies of GM and Chrysler can do the same.
Forget about GM, Chrysler, and Detroit. They will only be shells of what they once were selling cars to people to don’t know anything about them, as in foreign countries. Manufacturing will exist in the countries where they expect to sell the cars. People in the US don’t trust the US automakers, especially with the government involved. I for one am through with American cars and I’ve always been a Designed and Built in the USA car guy. The bottom line for the US auto makers is who will buy their cars in America. Did the Obama think of that?
Yes, Detroit can reemerge if they focus on making quality efficient products similar to the Toyota Corolla or withinnovative quality products like the Toyota Prius. Unfortunately even if GM makes these types of products at this time it will be difficult to sell with so many American workers down and out and unable to buy. This innovation should have been started years ago. There are GM products today like the Chevy Spark that should be integrated into the US market.
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IDEA TO SAVE THE AUTO INDUSTRY. I WATCH THE NEWS CONSTANTLY SWITCHING FROM FOX TO CNN ALOT. I HAVE AN IDEA TO CREATE A BOOM IN THE AUTO INDUSTRY, BUT IT WILL ONLY BE FOR HYBRID’S AND ALTERNATIVE FUEL CARS. I WILL TRY TO REACH INDUSTRIES WHEN I HAVE THE TIME. IF A PRODUCER SEES THIS E-MAIL AND WOULD LIKE TO CONTACT ME MY E-MAIL IS: LoreHester1955@Aol.com